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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???  (Read 10919 times)

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Offline Baguette

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Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« on: August 01, 2009, 07:24:02 am »
Hello!

MV options are often discussed in a LTP configuration, but I'm wondering which are the good ways of incorporating one in a split load PI amp (5E3, Princeton etc...).

Would adding a variable resistor (like 50 or 100k) in serie with the 1.5K cathode resistor work?
Other options?

Thanks a bunch!

Offline danhei

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2009, 10:53:24 am »
One easy method is to replace the 1M (typical) resistor going from the grid to the bottom of the cathode resistor with a 1M pot. The top of the pot goes to the coupling cap, the bottom to the bottom of the cathode resistor, and the wiper to the grid.

Another method is to use a post-PI MV, like on many Oranges, consisting of a dual-ganged pot after the cathodyne stage. The advantage here is the ability to overdrive the cathodyne, if that's something you want to be able to do.

I think adding a pot in series with the cathode resistor would bias the cathodyne colder and colder and make the output more asymmetrical. This might be an interesting effect but wouldn't really be a transparent MV.

Also, per an earlier discussion, people seem to find benefits to putting a 1M grid stopper (in series with the grid) on the cathodyne PI, particularly with a 12AX7. See here, starting with Merlin's post: http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=7295.0

Offline Baguette

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2009, 05:40:51 am »
Hello!

I've made some experiments with my 5E3ish amp.

1/ 100k pot in serie with the cathodyne cathode 1.5k resistor: this pretty much does not work. The sound just get a little less loud but much less defined and way raspier.

2/ Replacing the PI grid 1M resistor: this one does not work either. The effect on loudness is subtle but the tone seriously suffers.

3/ Orange style PPIMV: did not try this one

4/ I've finally did the pre PI MV as found on the SuperChamp / Champ II. Works fine, and does not rob tone either, so I'll keep this one.

Cheers! 

Offline danhei

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2009, 08:55:40 am »
I'm a little surprised 2 didn't work. I've used it on an amp and it was fine as volume control, unless we're talking about different things. The pot was wired as a voltage divider, replacing the 1M grid reference resistor. The top of the pot went to the coupling cap from the preceding gain stage, the wiper of the pot went to the grid of the cathodyne, and the bottom of the pot went to the bottom of the cathode resistor, at the junction with the resistor to ground. Is that what you tried?

Offline Baguette

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2009, 09:44:08 am »
nope, I wired it as a variable resistor, hoping putting the cathodyne grid to reference point would turn down the volume... but since the reference point in this case is not ground, it did not quite work. Next time I'll setup the pot as a voltage divider and see how it works out.

Offline The Radium King

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2009, 09:47:02 am »
it's worked fine for me also. it's described in one of the ultimate tone books. it doesn't quite go to zero given that the bottom of the pot is not ground referenced, but it's not a tone suck (in my amp). it also serves (when not at max) as a grid resistor of sorts, to help defeat grid current flow when the earlier stages are hitting it hard.

Offline fud

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2009, 10:04:04 am »
I too have used this method with cathodynes (as explained by KOC...TUT3?).  The crossline MV works as well and is just a variable resistor between the outputs of the cathodyne.  The output phases cancel each other, lowering the volume.  A 1M linear pot works best but audio taper will function.

Offline danhei

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2009, 10:58:12 am »
Just looked at the schems for the Super Champ and Champ II. That looks like a fine way to add a MV, and it avoids the MV not quite going to zero that the Radium King mentioned. I had forgotten about that effect, but the amp I used it on had very little preamp gain (one gain stage -> cathodyne -> PP EL something or other output) so that not-quite-zero was barely audio. On a higher gain amp it might be a problem.

Offline rzenc

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2009, 11:11:13 am »


Another method is to use a post-PI MV, like on many Oranges, consisting of a dual-ganged pot after the cathodyne stage. The advantage here is the ability to overdrive the cathodyne, if that's something you want to be able to do.


I did try the post PI MV, dual ganged and the crossline...with both designs from early Oranges, 1972 and 1974 that is, AC coupled cand DC coupled cathodynes respectively, well... i did not like them at all the action was too abrupt, working only on the first degrees of rotation, then it did not work anymore, I started with 1M dual ganged and tried diferent resistors in parallel with the outer lugs in order to lower the overall resistance of the pot, althought it did not changed  sound by that much it was still noticle better without it.. as far as I can tell about the crossline, it made the amp sound thin and raspy , it also work only on the first digits and then lost it's action..maybe I should have fooled around more with this mods but I did not care for them, however what seemed to work better them the above options, at least to me :wink:, was a pre P.I., before the first gain stage on the cathodyne bottle..a typical 1MA pot worked quite nice..did not thinned the sound by that much and we could cranck the preamp for more bite... just my $0.02

Hope this helps

Best Regards

Rzenc

Offline Sundhy

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2009, 06:59:24 pm »
I agree with danhei.  The top of the 1 meg pot is connected to the incoming capacitor.  The bottom of the pot goes the the junction of the voltage divider off the cathode.  The wiper goes to the grid.  I would recommend a 100k resistor between the wiper of the pot and the grid.

Sundhy

Offline atmars

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2010, 10:15:34 pm »
I replaced the 1 meg resistor with a one meg pot (variable resistor), coupling cap end to the outside leg of the pot the other 1.5k/56k end to the wiper. It seems to work just fine ( in that it reduces the overall volume  to zero and all the way up is like it not being there). I'm not sure where I heard about this idea (certainly didn't come up with it myself). Before I rewire to test, how does the "wiper goes to grid" version compare in regard to tone and functionality? Any other downside?

Offline darryl

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2010, 02:51:38 am »
The 5-watt amplifier build I described about a month ago uses a cathodyne PI and a master volume. The zener diode clipper before the master volume limits severe, harsh overdrive of both the phase inverter and the output valves, while still allowing some "smooth" overdrive. Tone is a matter of personal taste, so others may not agree with my description of "smooth" and "harsh"... :smiley:

Offline chocopower

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2010, 07:36:35 am »
Darryl, one question..

 I can see that the cathode output in youR PI is in the conjuction of the 1k5 and 47k  resistor like in the Orange amps.
In the 5E3 deluxe and similars, the signal goes out from the cathode.

Why those diferent ways?


« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 09:19:20 am by chocopower »
David

Offline darryl

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2010, 09:39:42 am »
Darryl, one question..
I can see that the cathode output in you PI is in the conjuction of the 1k5 and 47k  resistor like in the Orange amps.
In the 5E3 deluxe and similars, the signal goes from the cathode.
Why those diferent ways?

The theoretical perfect balance of the cathodyne PI is altered slightly because the anode load resistor is 47k while the cathode load is 47k + 1k5. Taking the cathode output from the junction of the 47k and 1k5 resistors provides slightly better balance between the PI's outputs. However, some imbalance in the output waveform of a guitar amplifier can produce pleasing harmonics, so allowing the PI to be slightly unbalanced can be a deliberate design decision.

I must admit that I haven't tried both connection points to see if there is a perceptible difference. Perhaps I should before theorising further... :embarrassed:

Offline atmars

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2010, 10:37:16 am »
Quote
in that it reduces the overall volume  to zero

NOT all the way to zero as one might expect. Checked it out again. I guess working late the mind plays tricks. i have a linear pot in place of the resistor. There real attenuation happens around three. Not a very big slice of the dial that is usable and it's hard on the overall tone as the volume starts to drop, but works in a pinch.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2010, 01:06:07 pm »
i have a linear pot in place of the resistor. There real attenuation happens around three.

The same thing happens if you swap your volume pot for a linear taper pot. All the action appears to happen low on the dial. But that's what audio taper pots are for...  :wink:

Offline atmars

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2010, 02:15:42 pm »
Yeah -  i guess I should have thought of that. But, I wasn't sure the effect would be quite the same as a regular pot and I thought the linear pot would be an easy way to "see" the effect across the whole 1 meg spectrum. Kind of over thought it I guess.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2010, 09:09:50 am »
I'm not sure where I heard about this idea (certainly didn't come up with it myself). Before I rewire to test, how does the "wiper goes to grid" version compare in regard to tone and functionality?

Several years ago (maybe late 2006, early 2007 or thereabout) there was a thread talking about an amp with an unusual master volume circuit on a split-load inverter. I *think* it might have been a Peavey amp or something.

Anyway, I don't recall the exact arrangement, except that a 1M audio pot was used in place of the grid-reference resistor, and I *think* the wiper went to the grid.

Alright... you know the concertina essenitally provides no gain because of the large unbypassed resistor between cathode and ground (there's a way to get the gain back, but it's impractical in guitar amps and never used). The loss of gain is due to local feedback in the circuit, and there's an interesting effect as a result of the feedback called "bootstrapping". Aiken has some info and explanation on it when he talks about this type of inverter.

Anyway, the result of bootstrapping is that the input impedance of the split-load is much higher than you'd think from the 1M resistor, or even from the resistor and the cathode load. Imagine a tube that was being used as a split-load inverter, and that the gain of the tube with a 100k plate load is 50. However, you're using it as a split-load, so half the load is in the plate circuit and half is in the cathode circuit. If you drew a loadline for the inverter, you'd still draw a 100k loadline to estimate how the stage would operate. So if all 100k was in the plate of our imaginary tube and you applied a 1v signal to the grid, you'd expect a 50v change at the plate (since we said the gain of the stage was 50). Therefore, if you move half the load to the cathode circuit, you'd think that you'd get a 25v change at the plate and a 25v change at the cathode.

But we know from experience and being told that the gain of the split-load is less than 1 due to feedback, more like 0.98. So if we apply a 1v signal at the grid, 0.98v appears at the cathode. That leaves 0.02v across the 1M input resistor, and a current of 0.02uA through the 1M resistor. But it took a 1v signal to push 0.02uA through the grid reference resistor, so it therefore looks like R = e/I =1v/0.02uA = 50,000,000 or 50M! The feedback has raised the input impedance of the circuit.

One of the big reasons a tube stage has less gain than you'd think from either the amplification factor or (for pentodes) Gm*Rl is that the following stage's grid resistor loads the circuit down. Triodes have low internal plate resistance, so you can only benefit so much from the bootstrapped input impedance, but a pentode before this type of inverter can have massive gain due to the effect. There is a circuit that has to be shown in its schematic form rather than explained that takes advantage of this, but uses a 100k grid resistor rather than 1M.

The neat effect that PRR pointed out about this production amp with a 1M pot as the grid load for a split-load inverter preceeded by a triode was that withe the volume full up, the preceeding triode took advantage of bootstrapping to give higher than expected gain from the stage ahead of the split-load. But as the control was turned down, not only did less signal get fed to the inverter, but the gain of the preceeding stage also dropped because of a reduction in the bootstrapping. It was a 2-way gain reducer.

So try it a number of ways and see what works best for you. The complicated pentode-split-load circuit can be seen in High Fidelity Circuit Design by Norman Crowhurst on Pete Millet's website. I'm planning on playing with it some to see what I can accomplish.

Offline FYL

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2010, 09:49:06 am »
Quote
Anyway, I don't recall the exact arrangement, except that a 1M audio pot was used in place of the grid-reference resistor, and I *think* the wiper went to the grid.

You may use a smaller value pot because of the bootstrapping effect, down to 250K or so. I use 500K, giving a 2M bootstrapped value (x4).

Here's a schematic showing a tweedy implementation. You may use a larger grid stop if the amp will be cranked or used modern-style.





Offline atmars

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2010, 07:25:13 pm »
Quote
i have a linear pot in place of the resistor. There real attenuation happens around three.

In the interest of observable results from repeatable experiments, I went to switch out the linear pot for an audio and turns out I must have grabbed the wrong pot the first time around because there was an audio pot in there already. So, real attenuation happens at about 3 with and AUDIO pot, not linear.

Offline PRR

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2010, 11:03:35 pm »
> Why those diferent ways?

I think Fender did it "wrong" because it was easier to build that way, and nobody can hear a difference. (If someone tries the experiment I'd like to know what you find.)

Offline topbrent

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2010, 08:43:45 pm »
This is a version that I have seen used on Princeton Reverb type amps.  

Stock Princeton Reverb PI schematic on top, Master Volume mod schematic on bottom.

It should work on any split load/concertina PI.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 09:03:00 pm by topbrent »

Offline darryl

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2010, 10:07:06 pm »
This is a version that I have seen used on Princeton Reverb type amps.  
Stock Princeton Reverb PI schematic on top, Master Volume mod schematic on bottom.
It should work on any split load/concertina PI.

That arrangement puts the master volume inside the negative feedback loop, so as the master is turned down, the nfb level also falls. This is not a problem if the master volume was installed to deliberately produce distortion.  :smiley:

An extra preamp gain stage may be necessary to overdrive the stage immediately before the master volume.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Master Volume w/ split load / concertina PI???
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2010, 02:19:39 am »
And when using a master like this, which has a cap going in and a cap coming out, it is preferable to make one of the caps bigger. When this master is turned all the way up, the 2 caps are in series and the effect value is half the value of one cap, or 0.01uF in this case. For no interaction, you want to make one cap 10 times larger than the other.

 


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