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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project  (Read 62983 times)

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Offline DummyLoad

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2010, 06:05:28 pm »
you could use a 6SN7 for the CF stages and 6SL7 for gain w/ GC & PF. 

sub 5691 for 6SL7 and/or 5692 for 6SN7...

--ISO

Offline PRR

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2010, 08:09:28 pm »
> 6SL7 ...  I read somewhere that this was the original impetus for a 12AX7

12AX7 is a dual 6F5.

The 12AU7/6SN7 is a very good clean tube.

6SL7 is juiced-up for more gain and less linearity.

12AX7 sits on the edge of instability to get the maximum gain which can be mass-produced and used for audio.

Tube-swaps are quite valid. But recall that "everything" uses 12AX7. I suspect the ear wants the non-linearity. That if we truly wanted "clean", today, we'd use a good chip. If you gonna fool with tubes, your best bet is to stay with the pack.

> you're saying it becomes 'Low-Z' out

NOT the 200-600 ohms that Pro Audio expects.

OTOH, not the 50+K that you get out of a pickup or the plate of a high-gain tube.

It's a good unbalanced line which can be run across a stage. Not over the lighting racks to the far end of the barn. (For tough rooms, add a high-quality 10K:10K balancing transformer; but real-tough rooms want a proper Line Driver, not a gimmicked 12AX7.)

And it also throws-away roughly the excess gain of two stages of 12AX7, with few side-effects.

> 34dB which is really a good number to shoot for.

20mV to 1V is gain of 50 which is 34dB. This alone would be enough. But we need a volume control, and golly we just gotta have tone controls. So you need two stages. Conceptually you could manage with 1/2 12AX7 and 1/2 12AU7. There is actually a dual-triode like that. But you can't get a replacement in Lodi on saturday night. So you use the universal 12AX7.

Cutting-out the tone control really leaves too much gain. Gain is easy to throw-away, just a question of how best to do it.

The James stack is interesting, because (unlike the Fender) it has a nearly-flat no-effect setting. (BTW: gain of 10K:600 is -12dB not -20dB.)

If you could find a good transformer 60K:600 which would accept 2mA of DC.... but today such a thing costs more than all the other parts in an Alembic. It isn't a standard part even at the boutique winders, AFAIK. You can find similar iron but response will be poor.


Offline oatmeal769

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2010, 10:08:07 am »
" ... There is a very good way to do this and limit gain and decrease distortion.  Instead of wiring the 12AX7 as a grounded cathode, wire it as a plate follower.  This is what I did on my preamp.  The major difference between a grounded cathode and a plate follower is negative feedback.  Yes you're adding a couple of resistors and a capacitor, but the payoff is much less distortion and much improved gain control.  I realize my schematic is hard to read.  The software I drew it in is "vintage" and it needed to be drawn complete since it's built onto a PCB.  I can redraw it in SCH, broken down into it's fundamental stages if you'd like ... "

" ... Let's total this up: Gain= 10*.5*34*.04=10 dB=20-6+34-28=20  20dB is a gain of 10    With the volume dimed, it's a gain of 20 or 26dB  Off the output of the tone stack, the signal splits to the 2 1/2's of the 12AU7.  V2b is a cathode follower.  It has a gain of less than 1, like .93 but for now just call it 1.  This feeds a 1/4" jack and is my unbalanced output with an impedance of about 450 ohms. ... "



Uhhh....  Guys I love all the help I'm getting here, and I am learning bit by bit, but with this you may as well be showing trigonometry to a sea slug.

So, essentially it isn't as easy as making a power supply, connecting it to a tube, along with an input, a couple gain knobs, and an output... ?

I have this 'thing' I acquired on eBay.  It's a jumble of wires, with a 12AX7 attached, let me see...  It has an outboard (wall wart) transformer at 15 watts.  This is connected to a 3300uF 25V cap and then the tube.
There are two gain knobs, connected with some resistors (one is pretty large - a 10w 150ohm 'brick') and a small cap or two to the tube, along with a 1/4" in plug and 1/4" out for my bass.  I use it as a low level pre to my headphone amplifier, and it seems to work fine for practice, and even recording.

My ambition is just to make one with a hotter output and zero tone modification other than the tube.  And enough to drive a compressor or power amp, because this one doesn't have the balls. 
I think what I'm reading here is that isn't really a possibility, as simple as I have envisioned it,  Is that right?  I have a pile of 6SL7's laying around, and it would be great to use those instead, but again it seems like it's not really feasible?

In other words, plain English, suitable for dumb guys please gentlemen.  I'm learning little by little, but so far this is like trying to get a drink from a fire-hose!

Offline RicharD

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2010, 10:41:04 am »
Now I'm confused....  Do you want a stereo preamp to drive a headphone amp and or power amp, or do you want a bass preamp?  You could build a fine (either one) using 6SL7's.

Offline oatmeal769

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2010, 05:05:20 pm »
 :grin:  I see how that might be confusing now that I read it...
The 'jumble of wires thing'  I use with my headphones is so that I can practice without bothering my neighbors.  I was just using it as an example.  It doesn't have the cajones to really drive a power amp and get a good thick sound, it's just enough to add a little gain going into my headphone amp for practice.

What I want is a single channel bass preamp.  I was just thinking that if my 'jumble of wires thing' works for a little bit of gain with just a couple resistors and a wall wart, why not make a 'real' power supply like the one in the Alembic, and drive the tube with that - except no tone stack or anything.  Just a gain/volume knob on each side of the tube, to adjust gain structure from clean to dirty sounding.

You guys were saying there needed to be a tone stack (I think) because the tube needed it as a pad right?  Why not just put a resistor there?

Offline RicharD

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #55 on: January 17, 2010, 06:08:15 pm »
Here ya go.  I whipped you up a little 1 bottle preamp.  Filaments are 12.6 cuz that was the only suitable transformer I could find.  I did find one with 6.3V but the HT was about 40 times greater than necessary.

Offline oatmeal769

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2010, 02:33:30 pm »
Buttery -

This is awesome, thanks!   :occasion14:   Even I can figure how to wire this one!

Questions:

Does Hoffman Hoffman sell a P-T442 transformer?  I didn't see one.  Looks like they're easy to get elsewhere though.

So, S2 is a boost switch - for gain I'm assuming, or will it boost treble as on the Alembic?

Would I be able to place a 'post gain knob' somewhere between R8 and R9?

Can I substitute a 6SL-7 for the 12AX-7 if I give the PT secondary a 'dummy load' - maybe another 6SL-7, or a resistor in series, etc?

If I could find a transformer (like another stancor with 6.3 V on the secondary)  Could that enable a 6SL-7 to be substituted in this circuit?

Can you recommend a 'tube pre-amps' for dummies book, so I might understand some of what you wrote about earlier?  Power amplification is never really an issue - I'm a solid state guy there... But small signals, and Pre-amps are what I'm mostly interested in.


Thanks again for doing this!



Offline RicharD

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2010, 04:53:34 pm »
>Does Hoffman Hoffman sell a P-T442 transformer?
No, Antique Electronics has it.  (Sorry Doug)

>So, S2 is a boost switch - for gain I'm assuming, or will it boost treble as on the Alembic?
It boosts gain.  The cap you select will affect lo freq cut off.  I think Fender used a 15uF, Marshall used a .68uF for a lot of lo cut.  A 25 should pass full frequency.  It's something to play with.  Less than 2V present, clip leads are your friend.

>Would I be able to place a 'post gain knob' somewhere between R8 and R9?
Make R9 a pot.  Tie the wiper to J2.  Not much reason to.  I don't think you can over-drive V2 because it's a cathode follower whose input threshold is still 8V even with a 10k load.  Waste of a pot IMO.

>Can I substitute a 6SL-7 for the 12AX-7
Circuit-wise yes.  Filaments are the only issue.  I found an 80mA transformer, you need less than 5mA.  If you're gonna series 2 6SL7 filaments, go ahead and make a stereo unit.  Use switching input jacks and wire so when just the left jack is plugged in, it drives both preamps.   :wink:  Make R10 a 33k if you build stereo.  You may have to play with this value to get roughly 250V.  I'm guestimating 1mA per stage.  You wanna drop 100V across R10.  That's high voltage, clip leads are NOT your friend.

>Can you recommend a 'tube pre-amps' for dummies book
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/




Offline oatmeal769

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2010, 05:49:54 pm »
It boosts gain.  The cap you select will affect lo freq cut off.  I think Fender used a 15uF, Marshall used a .68uF for a lot of lo cut.  A 25 should pass full frequency.  It's something to play with.  Less than 2V present, clip leads are your friend.
I see what you are saying about a gain pot on R9.  Can I put one on R4 and delete the the gain switch and cap?
Filaments are the only issue.  I found an 80mA transformer, you need less than 5mA.
Wow, that much difference?  I guess it isn't as easy as just using 'half as much.'
  If you're gonna series 2 6SL7 filaments, go ahead and make a stereo unit.  Use switching input jacks and wire so when just the left jack is plugged in, it drives both preamps.
Say, this is a great idea!  Use the PT you listed and just drive two filaments...  Would I just use the second jack to drive the second channel / tube only?  This might be a great way to compare tubes too!

Offline RicharD

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2010, 06:51:29 pm »
R4 sets the bias of V1.  You can vary it between something like 820 ohms and 3k3, but 1k5 is optimal.  Adding the bypass cap (C1) gives you about 6dB of additional gain outta that stage.  25uF should pass full audio bandwidth and you should start hearing a decrease in lo freq at about 15uf.  As you decrease this value, it will get tinnier.  Play with the cap value, not the resistor.  Most likely for bass, you'll wanna run with a 25uF switched in.  If you put a string of stomp boxes in front of it, you'll prolly want it switched out.

You could use a 500mA transformer if you wanted to.  you could put sugar in your coffee with a backhoe too.  I speced an economical little 15mA transformer.  More than enough HT to drive 2 bottles, just enough filament power to drive 2 12AX7's or 2 6SL7's.


Offline oatmeal769

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2010, 07:11:45 pm »
You could use a 500mA transformer if you wanted to.  you could put sugar in your coffee with a backhoe too.  I speced an economical little 15mA transformer.  More than enough HT to drive 2 bottles, just enough filament power to drive 2 12AX7's or 2 6SL7's.
Ohhh...  Your statement 'Filaments are the only issue' threw me.
In other words, I can put whichever, a 12AX-7 or a 6SL-7 in there with no problems...

Offline RicharD

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2010, 11:44:51 pm »
I can see how I was confusing.  I was talking about the HT secondary and the filament secondary at the same time.  Let's do filaments first.

A 12AX7 can be heated with either 6.3V or 12.6V.  For 6V operation, tie 4 and 5 together and use pin 9.  For 12V operation use pins 4 & 5 and ignore pin 9.  There's 2 internal filaments in each bottle wired to a common point (pin 9).  If you wire them in parallel, then your source voltage is 6.3VAC @.3A  Wired in series you need 12.6VAC @.15A
A 6SL7 only has 1 filament winding, 6.3V @ .3A  If we have 2 - 6SL7's, we can wire their filaments in series and feed from a 12.6V source.  Same deal as what's internal to a 12AX7 except your using 2 tubes.  For 2 tubes you need either .6A @ 6.3V or .3A @ 12.6V

Where I threw you was talking about the ampacity need for the HT.  I counted on thumbs and called it 1mA per stage, so you need 2mA for mono and 4 mA for stereo at 250V.  So armed with these values, I started looking for tiny transformers.  The smallest transformer I could find that had 6.3V filaments had 80mA of HT.  Way more than you need.  The transformer I pick has .3A of 12.6V, exactly enough for 2 of these bottles.  The HT secondary is 125V @ 15mA.  Wired into a voltage doubler rectifier, you get 350ish volts @ 7.5mA   This transformer is perfect for little 1 and 2 bottle preamps.


Offline oatmeal769

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #62 on: January 19, 2010, 09:35:02 pm »
A 12AX7 can be heated with either 6.3V or 12.6V.  For 6V operation, tie 4 and 5 together and use pin 9.  For 12V operation use pins 4 & 5 and ignore pin 9.  There's 2 internal filaments in each bottle wired to a common point (pin 9).  If you wire them in parallel, then your source voltage is 6.3VAC @.3A  Wired in series you need 12.6VAC @.15A  A 6SL7 only has 1 filament winding, 6.3V @ .3A  If we have 2 - 6SL7's, we can wire their filaments in series and feed from a 12.6V source.  Same deal as what's internal to a 12AX7 except your using 2 tubes.  For 2 tubes you need either .6A @ 6.3V or .3A @ 12.6V
Ahh So.  Now I completely understand, thanks.  So yeah, if I'm going to do 6SL7's, it'd almost be dumb not to do it in stereo.  I also understand now why you can't just swap one for the other, without considering how the filament voltage will end up.
Now, I went back and re-read your post on the last page about 28 times....
"... There is a very good way to do this and limit gain and decrease distortion.  Instead of wiring the 12AX7 as a grounded cathode, wire it as a plate follower.  This is what I did on my preamp.  The major difference between a grounded cathode and a plate follower is negative feedback.  Yes you're adding a couple of resistors and a capacitor, but the payoff is much less distortion and much improved gain control.  ..."

OK.... so you prolly don't need all the fluff and you said you want to take a minimalist approach using a 6SL7.  I'd suggest trying a bypassed plate follower shooting for a gain of about 30.  Insert a volume pot and use the other 1/2 as either a cathode follower if you want an unbalanced out or as a split load if you want a balanced output... although you might not get a low enough Z out with a 6SL7.
It seems to me that I would want the benefits of some negative feedback if I can get it so easily.  It isn't like it is 'changing' the tone by adding tone circuits, etc.  It's just using the same circuit in a better, more controlled way...  Is it a simple thing to make some changes in your 'oatmeal' design to do that?  I don't understand what a 'cathode follower' or a 'grounded cathode' (although the latter seems self explanatory...) are, but it seems an easy option for the first half of the tube.  Then to have a 'split load'  on the second half of the tube, to make a relatively decent balanced out. - I won't be vaulting any light rigs over barns...

I will try to do some homework and read about the above mentioned terms as well...
Go for it.  The 6SL7 is a schweet sounding tube.
Hooowww schweeeett iiisss iiittt???   In your subjective opinion of course as a fellow bass player. - Is it 'better' or just 'different' than the 12AX-7?


Offline imaradiostar

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #63 on: January 19, 2010, 11:42:57 pm »
If you just want a headphone amp why don't you plug the alembic into a solid state headphone amp and put a pot inbetween so you can overdrive the second gain stage in the alembic if needed?

maybe I'm not seeing the forest through the trees?   :embarrassed:

Personally I prefer a little dc biased cathode follower sound (tweed bassman, plexi, SVT) for bass...but that's just me.

jamie


Offline RicharD

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #64 on: January 20, 2010, 12:21:37 am »
Assuming you want to run within the limits of this transformer, you are limited to 2 - 6SL7's.  That gives you 4 stages to play with.  I drew a gain stage followed by a driver stage.  You could double that and have a stereo unit.  You could change the driver stage from a cathode follower to a split load and have balanced outputs.  You mentioned neg feedback, but with a single gain stage I don't think you'll have enough output left. 

I don't know what you have against tone stacks.  The James stack hijacked from the SVT is awesome for bass.  With 4 stages, I'd build (actually built):
Gain stage with a lit of neg feedback > volume control > Gain stage > Tone Stack >split the signal to a cathode follower for a hi Z out and to a split load for a balanced out.

Heck... 2 bottles, copy the Alembic circuit but use 6SL7's. 

Offline oatmeal769

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #65 on: January 20, 2010, 11:26:16 am »
If you just want a headphone amp why don't you plug the alembic into a solid state headphone amp and put a pot inbetween so you can overdrive the second gain stage in the alembic if needed?
My original intent was to build a pre-amp, like the Alembic F2-B, but without the time stack.  The reason is because I have noticed over time that the simpler I can make my signal path, the more 'punch' and 'truth' I can get out of my basses.
Then I had the bright idea of simply eliminating anything extraneous to pre-amping at all, and simply let the tube be the sound.
Butterylicious has been more than awesome in helping me understand all this.  He drew me a schematic for what I wanted which I will build as soon as I can. 
Now, after reading his latest post, I'm thinking of trying the 'James' stack, along with his design as well.

Offline oatmeal769

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #66 on: January 20, 2010, 11:39:11 am »
You could change the driver stage from a cathode follower to a split load and have balanced outputs.

That sounds perfect, what do I do differently to your 'oatmeal' design to make this so?

I don't know what you have against tone stacks.  The James stack hijacked from the SVT is awesome for bass.  With 4 stages, I'd build (actually built):
Gain stage with a lit of neg feedback > volume control > Gain stage > Tone Stack >split the signal to a cathode follower for a hi Z out and to a split load for a balanced out.

This is the schem. you sent me before, right?  I once had an SVT pre-amp, but remember not liking it's sound as much as the Alembic.  But you're right, it does seem like it's worth a shot.  Maybe my taste has changed in 20 years.
Would you mind if I built your pre-amp?  Can you share with me the complete schem, with the power supply, etc.?

Heck... 2 bottles, copy the Alembic circuit but use 6SL7's. 
Based on the last few posts on X4MR's, I think I could 'try' this sound by swapping a 6SL-7 into one of the channels, and leave the other channel tubeless - thus preserving 6 volts.  If I liked it, I could then build it.


Offline RicharD

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #67 on: January 20, 2010, 01:02:18 pm »
I've attached a stereo 6SL7 version of the Oatmeal Preamp with balanced outputs.  I was quite hammered last night so consider this a DWI (designing while intoxicated) drawing.  I have not checked it for errors.  I'm home sick today so I'll check it out later on.  Lemme breadboard it before you go out spending a bunch of money.  Looks OK on paper, it might suck in 3D.


>Would you mind if I built your pre-amp?  Can you share with me the complete schem, with the power supply, etc.?
Go for it.  Here's the schematic:
http://www.sotxampco.com/Schematics/STAC/Chanel-B-8.pdf
In fact, I have 1 blank PC board left.  It's rev1 and has a couple of tight fitting holes but you can have it at cost if you want it.  It's kinda pricey to finish with chassis -n- all + the peerless transformers are a fleaBay battle.

>Hooowww schweeeett iiisss iiittt???   In your subjective opinion of course as a fellow bass player. - Is it 'better' or just 'different' than the 12AX-7?
The 6SL7 is one of the last octal dual triodes.  It's curves look very much like that of the later 12AX7.  Opinions are subjective, but it's a good audio tube.  Bass player???



« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 02:32:24 pm by Butterylicious »

Offline PRR

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #68 on: January 20, 2010, 09:55:53 pm »
> a P-T442 transformer?

With 6V tubes, the power supply from a Champ would work. Just do NOT wire a Champ PT the way Sluckey shows for the P-T442! Wire like a Champ, altho two 1N4007 is neater than a 5V3 rect.

BTW: 12SL7 (no dash!) is same-as 6SL7 except 12V heater.

> I found an 80mA transformer, you need less than 5mA.

Same deal. Champ PT can deliver 40mA-100mA, so is "too big for this job". However sometimes you only need a coffee spoon but can only find the dogfood scoop. At least it's not a backhoe.

There's also this for 12V tubes: PA211 Upgrade and Replacement transformer for Dynaco PAS2, PAS3 and PAS3X preamplifiers 330-0-330VAC at 15 ma, plus 12V at 800ma ---- $35

> You wanna drop 100V across R10.

Or if playing with different PT: you want to be in the 250V area at point "A". Build the PT rect and first cap(s), measure what you got there. Slucky's PT will give about 350V, the Dyna part will give 450V, the Champ PT about the same (depends who wound it). So the higher-volt PTs may need 100K-150K at "R10". A dozen 15K in series is a handy tool.


> a split load and have balanced outputs

Well..... good enough to waggle two grids on the same chassis. But interconnects can be long and have substantial capacitance. The split-load's balance is a matter of debate, and IMHO not a good way to drive a "balanced input jack". You want a lower impedance and less coupling (load on cathode radically affects gain at plate).

Offline RicharD

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #69 on: January 20, 2010, 10:57:27 pm »
>> a P-T442 transformer?

I picked this transformer cuz it's $15.00 cheap, just barely big enough, and a 125V HT is a little safer for a 1st time project.  The filaments are simple enough to work around.  Nothing wrong with a voltage doubler. 


>The split-load's balance is a matter of debate, and IMHO not a good way to drive a "balanced input jack".
I agree.  I like transformers but transformers are expensive.  I said I was gonna bread board the circuit, but it dawned upon me I don't have a power amp with a balanced input.  Attached is what I had originally drawn but with cathode followers instead of split loads.  I will breadboard 1 side of this circuit.

Offline RicharD

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2010, 09:15:37 am »
Bread board experiment is complete.  Too much gain.  Changed to a plate follower and all was good.

See attachments.

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #71 on: January 21, 2010, 09:48:17 am »
http://www.edcorusa.com/Products/ShowProduct.aspx?ID=631

transformer in link above will get you right in the 250VDC ballpark without burning off excess.

costs 46 and change american.

it's rated @ 200ma... so ya, kind of like sending a battleship to take out a dinghy, but what the heck...

--ISO

Offline RicharD

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #72 on: January 21, 2010, 10:43:16 am »
100V @ 4mA is a whopping 0.4 watts.  What's the big deal?  I say run with the $15.00 transformer.  You'd be hard pressed to ying-yang a pair of wall warts for that price.

xfmr -  $15
jacks - $10
Resistors & caps  - $10.00
Sockets - $5
box - $20.00
misc - $10

It's like a $70.00 project + tubes (which he already has)
A $70.00 stereo tube preamp, how can you go wrong?
Build the Oatmeal 1.1
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 10:46:04 am by Butterylicious »

Offline oatmeal769

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #73 on: January 21, 2010, 01:24:47 pm »
Bread board experiment is complete.  Too much gain.  Changed to a plate follower and all was good.
I simply cannot WAIT to build this!!
As soon as I get $50 from my next gig...!
It's like a $70.00 project + tubes (which he already has)  A $70.00 stereo tube preamp, how can you go wrong?  Build the Oatmeal 1.1

I even have the 47u / 450's from the Alembic rebuild I did.  I know at least 2 of them tested out just fine.  I replaced just to be consistent.  I have the resistors and jacks too. I cannot WAIT to build this!
I think I will kind of breadbox it too, until I figure out what kind of chassis I want.  It's so easy, I might just go point to point with no board or anything. I'm kinda leaning toward a single space rack-mount.  One knob, one jack per channel.  Mysterious and oh so sexy!  Anyone know a good place to buy a chassis?

Offline 7string

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #74 on: January 21, 2010, 08:31:51 pm »
Thank you, Butterylicious. This thread got me through some stuck spots on the preamp I'm building. I've read 3 or 4 really good preamp threads from you. Huge help. Much appreciatated!

Offline RicharD

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #75 on: January 21, 2010, 11:30:43 pm »
>Thank you, Butterylicious.
You're most welcome.  I'm glad I can help especially since I'm still learning. 

>>Too much gain.
I played around with the circuit some more.  "Too much gain" for my crappy ss amp and cheap speakers.  Your mileage may vary.  If you don't have enough gain, revert to my earlier schematic.  Remove Rfb and change R2 back to a 27k.  W/o Rfb, the 47k will cut into the hi frequency response.  With a 27k, you should clear 50kHz.

My estimation of 1mA per stage is pretty much right on.  V1a is slightly less than 1mA and V1b is slightly more.  It all works out in the wash.

>Anyone know a good place to buy a chassis?
You mean rack chassis right?
http://www.par-metal.com/
So much for $70.00   :rolleyes:

>I think I will kind of breadbox it too, until I figure out what kind of chassis I want.
Perf board and an old cake pan.  Works great but pisses off the Mrs. 
"MY MOTHER GAVE ME THAT CAKE PAN!"


Offline RicharD

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #76 on: January 22, 2010, 07:45:54 am »
I have a question on voltage doublers pertaining to this inexpensive transformer I've been talking about.  I am playing with an embellishment of the circuit above using a 12AT7 and a 12AU7 since I literally have a gallon of AT's and closer to 2 gallons of AU's.  My plan requires approximately 8mA of B+.  This transformer is rated at 15mA.  If I understand correctly, a voltage doubler can deliver 1/2 the mA available from the PT so that gives me 7.5mA  I'm already at the max rated current for filaments.  Do you think I'm begging for trouble?

Thanks!
-Richard

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #77 on: January 22, 2010, 08:32:29 am »
Judging by the picture on the AES site the core seems to be generously sized, so I guess that you can try to max it.


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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #78 on: January 22, 2010, 03:57:02 pm »
That's what I'm hoping for.  It seems like most of the good transformer builders spec their products conservatively.  For $15.00, it's not like I'd be out all that much if it can't withstand my torture.

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #79 on: January 22, 2010, 05:38:29 pm »
Do you think I'm begging for trouble?

yes.

weather it'll work or not is not the issue, of course it'll work... what is the issues are long term reliability, core saturation and long term temperature rise... play for a couple of hours and you probably won't be able to touch it... forget to turn it off for a day or two and you just may have a melt down. remember this: any piece of electronic equipment is a good as it's power supply, no matter how good it sounds...

hammond winds that same series of transformer with larger cores, it's just that AES doesn't stock them - find out who does and take the high road.  :smiley:

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #80 on: January 22, 2010, 08:00:30 pm »
Hello!!!!  That is a Hammond.... or at least it was on a Hammond page when I found it.

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2010, 11:23:59 am »
I played around with the circuit some more.  "Too much gain" for my crappy ss amp and cheap speakers.  Your mileage may vary.  If you don't have enough gain, revert to my earlier schematic. 
I'm active in all my instrument electronics, so we'll see.  Even so, adjusting doesn't seem like a big deal.
>Anyone know a good place to buy a chassis?
You mean rack chassis right?
http://www.par-metal.com/
So much for $70.00   :rolleyes:
Holy smokes, screw that!  I'll make one out of wood first...
"MY MOTHER GAVE ME THAT CAKE PAN!"
"Well, if you'd have put it to better use than burning up some old cake mix, you'd still have it! ..."   :shocked:
I'm still single BTW, wonder why...

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #82 on: February 16, 2010, 11:05:36 am »
I'm getting ready to order and make 'The Oatmeal.'  I've been messing around with my current setup as well.  Something I've realized I just don't understand is input/output impedance.  What it is, what I need, how to measure, etc.
I kinda thought it had something to do with resistance, and how loud or hot the signal would be, but I guess there's much more to it. 

What will the output impedance be with 'The Oatmeal' and will it drive today's modern +4 dB equipment?

There's another question - can anyone explain or show me where to read - in dumb guy terms - what all this +4dBu -10dbV stuff is, and how it all relates??

Maybe I should not worry about it, build this thing, and plug it into my compressor to see if it sounds good...


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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #83 on: February 16, 2010, 11:46:03 pm »
>There's another question - can anyone explain or show me where to read - in dumb guy terms - what all this +4dBu -10dbV stuff is, and how it all relates??

Here's a very good link.  It has dB conversion calculators and clear definitions in the box below the calc.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-db-volt.htm

>I just don't understand is input/output impedance.

Impedance is measured in ohms therefore it is resistive, but the terms implies that it changes.  Consider an 8 ohm speaker.  It's actually a coil of wire floating in a magnetic field and not a resistor, but sitting there doing nothing, it measures roughly 8 ohms.  As soon as you start pushing signal through it, the resistive component is all over the place.  I think of impedance as the resistance in quiescent state.

Input impedance is the reflective resistance, or load you'd put on a previous stage.  Ideally you want this to be very high so as to not tax the previous stage.  Consider the input of this circuit.  We have a 1 meg to ground in parallel with the grid of a 6SL7.  I don't remember the grid impedance of a 6SL7 but it's much greater than 1 meg, so effectively we've set the input impedance at 1 meg.  1 meg is a very light load.

Output impedance is well... the output resistance.  It's comprised of amplifier's impedance in parallel with a fixed load.  Unlike input impedance, output impedance isn't as easy to set.  It's fairly dominated by the tube and how it is wired. Plugging the values into TubeCad for V1a, I get an output impedance of 29K.  V1a is a grounded cathode amplifier.  Plugging the values in for V1b, I get an output impedance of 624 ohms.  V1b is a cathode follower.  It has no gain but a low output impedance. It's the trade off.  You want lo Z for traveling long distances and you want your output impedance to be much less than the input impedance of the next stage, 1/10th is an ideal design target.  I have a sand state power amp whose input impedance is 10K.   If i tapped off V1a, I'd be loading it down and therefore decreasing gain.  29k is not less than 10k and these are in parallel so effectively I change the output impedance to roughly 7.5k.  Now tapping off V1b, we're putting 624 in parallel with 10k = 590 which is still very close to 624.

>What will the output impedance be with 'The Oatmeal' and will it drive today's modern +4 dB equipment?

Call it 600 ohms and yes.




Offline oatmeal769

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #84 on: February 17, 2010, 12:32:05 am »
You know, this time, I think I actually understand you!  Speaker impedance is well known to me, so being able to take the next step isn't such a stretch.

That calc. page is awesome, I could have used that many times in the past too!  The dbU and dbV conversion thing always puzzles me.

Did you say you had bread-boarded V.2 and V.3?  Did you have the parts around or did you order them from Hoff.?  If you made up a parts/order list, can I have it?  I think I'll go through the schem. and order tomorrow, but I don't want to forget anything.

I think the Plate Follower may work best, the Alembic drives the compressor I have after it pretty hard - have to be very careful RE: distortion.

If I were to want to add the 'James tone stack' later, would I be able to just cut into this circuit and add it, or do I need to make the decision now?

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #85 on: February 17, 2010, 07:16:48 am »
I have a garage full of parts.  I built from parts on hand.

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #86 on: February 17, 2010, 10:53:14 am »
Well, here's the parts list.  Looks like I can get it all from Hoff, except the chassis and X4MR.  Look it over, did I miss anything?  (I have wire, solder, etc.)



1 Power cord & IEC input
1 Fuse   (Amps?)
1 Transformer Hammond P-T442
1 Power Switch 2-pole
1 LED & resistor(?) for 12V power on/off indicator
2 Octal tube sockets & mounts
2 knobs
4 Switchcraft (mono, switching)
2 Audio taper pots 500k (for gain control)
1 Breadboard & pegs
1 Chassis

2 diodes 1N4007

2 cap 100u/350
1 cap 47u/350V
2 cap 35u/25V
2 cap 0.1UF/100V cathode bypass
2 cap 2.2UF/100V cathode bypass


1 resistor 25k/2W  (* is 22k or 27k okay?)
6 resistor 1M
4 resistor 47k 1/4W
2 resistor 1.5k 1/4W
4 resistor 100k 1/4W
2 resistor 1k 1/4W
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 12:40:46 pm by oatmeal769 »

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #87 on: February 17, 2010, 06:38:29 pm »
> I don't remember the grid impedance of a 6SL7

Over 100Meg at low frequency.

About 60pFd too. This is 100Meg at 26Hz, 10Meg at 260Hz, 1Meg at 2.6KHz, 100K at 26KHz, 10K at 260KHz.

Together, ~~1Meg from DC to nearly 2KHz, falling to below 100K above the top of the audio band.

> I get an output impedance of 29K.

This stage will drive the one above to the top of the audio band, but not a whole lot more.

Note that the 47K in the oatmeal-1 has an effect on input impedance.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 06:51:14 pm by PRR »

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #88 on: February 17, 2010, 06:52:54 pm »
> what all this +4dBu

That's when you KNOW your level. Sound for the Olympic Games, the Nightly News, etc is adjusted to standard level on the network, so that any affiliate can cut-in without any surprise or overload.

For you and a sound person, the actual voltage is unimportant. It will vary a LOT with your music, your mood, from rehearsal to take/performance, and from piece to piece. You want enuff voltage to overwhelm any buzz the wire picks up, but typically not a problem. You would like enough voltage to flick the "signal" light on the mixer input, but most mixers can pull-up quite weak signals. You don't want so much that anything overloads. The design fits these goals.

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #89 on: February 17, 2010, 06:53:35 pm »
Impedance....

Wall-power examples.

I have a 60 Watt 120V lamp. Obviously it must suck 0.5 Amperes at 120V to eat 60 Watts. The ratio 120V/0.5A is the working impedance: 240 ohms.

(I say "working" because an incandescent lamp will read lower when cold; pay no attention to that.)

I have a heat-blower motor which, at start-up, pulls 60A at 120V: 120V/60A= 2 ohms.

Those are load impedances.

What are source impedances?

There is a hydro-power dam upriver here. If it were wired for 120V it might _safely_ put out 4,000 Amps: a 0.03 ohm load. Say I go there, measure 120V exactly, then plug-in my 60W lamp and measure 119.9997V. A 0.5A load causes a 0.0003V drop. 0.0003V/0.5A= 0.0006 ohms output impedance.

Back at my house, at the end of a long feeder wire, that same 60W lamp and 0.5A load causes 0.1V drop. 0.1V/0.5A= 0.2 ohm output impedance of my 400-foot wire.

It is usually "best" to use low-Z sources and hi-Z loads. For example, with my 0.1 ohm feeder wire, one 60W lamp causes a negligible 0.04% drop and 0.04% power-waste in my feeder. "Good power practice" allows 2% drop, I can have forty-eight 60W lamps all at once.

My feeder wire is not "best practice". When my blower kicks-on, the 60A draw in 0.1 ohm feeder drops my voltage by 60A*0.1ohm= 6 Volts, a 5% drop. This causes lamps to dim. That's why "best practice" calls for 2% drop. However in this case, a 2%-drop feeder would cost me $10K++. I have decided that my lamp-dim is more acceptable than the cost of no-dim feeder. The "cost of sag" is often a real trade-off.

Audio:

In power situations we may assume a single 50 or 60Hz frequency. Audio runs 20Hz-20KHz. Many real sources and loads are not the same voltage/current ratio at all frequencies.

In domestic power, the "best practice" says 2% max sag because the eye is good at detecting lamp-dim (and because many lamps' output falls faster than voltage). The ear is no so sensitive, and hardly notices 10% "dimming" (1dB level drop).

So the common rule for audio is to make your loads >10 times higher than your sources.

Imagine 1.000 Volt coming out of a 1 ohm source. If we load with infinity, we get 1.000V. Load with 100 ohms, get 0.99V. Load with 10 ohms, get 0.9V (actually 0.90909...V). Load with 1 ohm, get 0.5V. The ">10 rule" means you have 90% of the most you could get, and 90% is as good as 100% for most audio purposes.

When impedances vary with frequency, pick the worst-case.

A gitar pickup with cable is 5K resistance at low/mid frequency but rises to 100K at some medium-high frequency (and then falls off). Take the 100K worst-case. You want to load with 10 times higher: 1Meg.

Many audio chips have output impedances below 1K. Most line-level box-loads are designed for >10K input impedance. In current custom, often 22K.

Back when tubes ruled, you could not expect a source (such as preamp) to be less than 10K output impedance. Most line inputs were over 100K input impedance.

If you hang a modern recorder on an old tube hi-fi preamp: 22K load on 8K source, you only get 73% of the un-loaded voltage. This may be acceptable. Maybe it is the only preamp you have. Maybe it has cherished flavor (but be sure the flavor is not spoiled by the heavy load).

Just for completeness:

Looong telephone lines, so long that the wire parasitics matter, have impedance of 100-900 ohms (depending on construction). And a very long line can echo, and this can be minimized with a "matching" resistor. So there is a vast body of gear with 150/600 ohm nominal impedance. Also when tubes were COSTLY, you did not waste them making low-Z outputs. You transformed to nominal impedance, then did the math to figure what really happened. If an output is true 600 ohms, and an input is true 600 ohms, the voltage drops 50%; however tube-cost is minimized.

Since the cost of a tube fell below a week's-pay, most gear has been designed for low output Z and high input Z. The few situations where you "must" match can be loaded with resistors. Most "pro line inputs" are over 10K actual impedance.

The "oatmeal-1" output stage has internal impedance a bit under 1K, low-enuff for 10K loads. It won't deliver much more than 1mA output current, but 1mA in 10K load is 10V peak, and musical instrument interfaces should rarely need more than 1V or so on the line.

Offline RicharD

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #90 on: February 17, 2010, 06:57:18 pm »
>1 Transformer Hammond P-T442
I was wrong, it's not a Hammond, but it's on the Hammond page.  Go figure.... Run with it.

>2 cap 0.1UF/100V cathode bypass
2 cap 2.2UF/100V cathode bypass

These are coupling caps, go 350V or greater.

>1 resistor 25k/2W  (* is 22k or 27k okay?)
Yes, 22k will put you a bit above 250V, 27k a bit below.  Again, this is a shoot from the hip design so you might need to play with this value.  It won't explode one way or the other.  Higher voltage tends to add a little punch up to a point where it starts to sound crappy.  When I bread-boarded this circuit, all I really built was the amp circuit.  I tapped off an existing power supply.

>6 resistor 1M
4 resistor 47k 1/4W
2 resistor 1.5k 1/4W
4 resistor 100k 1/4W
2 resistor 1k 1/4W

Go with 1/2 watt.  1/4 watt would be fine but for a few pennies more, you get something easier to work with.  Oh yeah, 1k is peachy for the LED current regulating resistor.

 


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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #91 on: February 17, 2010, 07:08:09 pm »
>Looong telephone lines, so long that the wire parasitics matter

Triggers a tangent.  The origin of the spring reverb.  (I know we discussed this before, in fact I think PRR posted this link)
http://www.accutronicsreverb.com/history.htm

(copy-n-paste)

Laurens Hammond needed to find a way to add reverberation to the living room. He discovered that Bell Labs had devised an electromechanical device to simulate a single delay experienced on long distant calls. The device used two springs to transmit the delaying signal and four additional springs to dampen and “center” the driver saddle. While the dampening were housed in long tubes filled with oil, one of the springs transmitting the delay signal ended in a short tube which, by varying the amount of oil in the tube, varied the decay time. After modifying the reverb to create many echoes, it was perfect for Hammond’s needs.

Offline oatmeal769

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #92 on: March 10, 2010, 02:57:30 pm »
Hey Buttery -
Could I re-introduce the 'pseudo-balance' configuration from your 1.1 split-load design into the 1.3 plate follower design I'm making?  (or does that completely change the plate follower design...?)
Then I could use XLR outs, and feed the balanced inputs on my compressor. 

Ordered the chassis yesterday, I finally have some time coming up, I'll be building in the next week.

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #93 on: March 10, 2010, 10:57:41 pm »
>Could I re-introduce the 'pseudo-balance' configuration from your 1.1 split-load design into the 1.3 plate follower design I'm making?

Yes you could but according to PRR

>The split-load's balance is a matter of debate, and IMHO not a good way to drive a "balanced input jack".

I am inclined to agree.  I've actually never used a split load as a direct out.  I've always used a transformer, unfortunately they get kinda buckish.  The CineMag CM-2810 would be ideal.  You simply hang it right off the existing output.

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #94 on: March 11, 2010, 01:27:22 am »
Hmmm...
A Google search for CineMag "CM-2810" yields nothing, nor does a search of their website.  Is that the right number?

But yeah, it seems a transformer is the way to go.  If it's too pricey though, I'll suck it up with a 1/4" tip/sleeve.  I don't need the output to be balanced, and 600 Ohms is plenty low enough output impedance already to drive the 10K load of he next unit's input.  I was just hoping to keep it 'tidy' with all XLR to XLR connections.

One other thing -
Say I decide to put the James Tone Stack in later.  Can I just cut in and 'insert' it someplace after the fact, or will it involve some major circuit re-design?

TIA !

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #95 on: March 12, 2010, 09:06:53 pm »

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #96 on: March 12, 2010, 11:15:10 pm »

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« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 12:22:30 am by Butterylicious »

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #98 on: March 13, 2010, 12:06:49 am »
Here's a revised schematic.  If you're gonna add balanced out, you might wanna add a polarity switch (optional) and you for certain want the ground lift switch. 

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Re: Alembic F2-B Pre-Amp Restoration project
« Reply #99 on: March 13, 2010, 10:43:45 am »
Great!
A question -
At J102 - the signal lead would need to be connected to the signal lead from the top channel in order to mix the two, right?  As it is drawn, it seems channel B (bottom) isn't connected to an output?

Also, there's no need to have a separate channel out unless I wanted to run stereo for some reason right?  I can just connect the two channels for a blend as far as I can tell...


What do you guys think of this faceplate layout?  There are two ideas - channel A or B.  I was thinking of opening a hole to view the tube.  Dumb idea? (tone stack to come later).
I went with the jacks toward center, and the channels working 'outward' as that seems to be where my eye gravitates in my current rack...  Dumb idea?

I wouldn't do the 'Hire me, I'm easy red' color, it would be a very muted deep red over black...  IF I color it at all.




 


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