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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Phono to guitar amp conversion  (Read 16356 times)

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Offline elmore_lewis

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Phono to guitar amp conversion
« on: January 12, 2010, 03:45:51 pm »
Hey fella's

I picked up a 1956 Motorola HS475 6V6 tube amp as a project to learn on before I attempt a custom build.   Question: the input signal goes thru a 1 Meg volume pot before it enters V1. I've looked at dozens of vintage amp schematics and can't find one that does this. It works fine as a volume control when I plug in as is. Is there any reason I should change it to a more classic tone stack configuration? both treble and bass controls are in typical spots. Thanks for any thoughts on this!

 EL


Offline RicharD

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2010, 04:19:11 pm »
Hifi's typically put an attenuator right at the input to prevent over-driving the preamp.  It's not done on guitar amps because over-driving V1 is cool + all of my guitars have an attenuator built in.  See the redundancy?

Converting old hifi's to guitar amps is an economical way to get into a good guitar amp.  I've had smashing results almost every time I've done this.  It's a great way to learn too.

Best-O-luck

-Richard
 

Offline elmore_lewis

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2010, 06:06:10 pm »
Thanks Richard !

Got it,basically I've got two volume controls for my guitar, just one is on the amp. Of course it makes perfect sense now. Thanks for the info man !
cheers !

-EL

 

Offline daven

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2010, 06:13:21 pm »
see also this thread regarding the silvertone 1471 (and equivalent):  http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=8285.

in addition to being a good harp amp, I also like it for guitar (although, if it matters, it's not very loud).

Offline PRR

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2010, 08:51:36 pm »
> I've looked at dozens of vintage amp schematics and can't find one that does this.

Seen mostly in cheap amps; cheaper than Champ. Also the very old low-gain amps.

Guitar can be weaker or stronger than old (78) phono. Disk cutters have control of their levels, aiming for loud-enuff versus play-time. With older needles, the pickup level was ample to overwhelm tube hiss. So you simply put the volume control in front.

Gitar pluckers may caress gently or whack hard. To bring all guitar signal up/down to optimum amplifier/speaker/room level, you want a high-gain amplifier without excess hiss. This generally suggests one stage of gain, then volume, then the rest of your gain.

Modern phono pickups, and microphones, may be even weaker, and suggest two gain stages before the volume control.

If you are happy the way it is, leave it alone. It is a fine design.

Offline RicharD

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2010, 10:17:17 am »
>If you are happy the way it is, leave it alone. It is a fine design.

I was under the impression he wanted to "chop-n-bob" it into a geetar amp.  It might sound great the way it is.  I've got an old National suitcase R2R that's a nasty little practice amp.  the only mod I made was a grounded power cord.

If you wanna hack and learn, here's what I'd do:

1.  Trace out the existing circuit.  This way you can see exactly what you have to work with.  Reverse engineering is a great exercise.
2.  Transpose your hand drawing into a sch file.  It's free software and easy to learn.
3.  Look at your existing tube complement and find a classic geetar amp design that's close.
4.  Compare the 2 schematics and chop-n-bob.

I am assuming that you are new to this.  Please build a lamp limiter.  It'll save you some embarrassment at some point.

-Richard

Offline elmore_lewis

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2010, 03:51:00 pm »
 Richard,

Yeah I do wanna hack it up a bit,in the right way that is. I actually found the schematic on the web and gave myself a  crash course in what all those lines mean ! HA HA  I can now say I actually know what most of them do,though why is still a mystery.The closest classic would probably be a Deluxe type amp,t although this thing uses a 6AU6 as the first gain stage which seems to be unusual in guitar amps. So maybe that's a place to start. I found the "One Tube Reverb" circuit here also and thought that might be a fun exercise.

 I got it pumping through a 4x10 cab right now and it sounds wicked cool,really nice snarly break-up.

 I had to look up "Lamp Limiter" and can see where that would be useful.


again I appreciate any input and suggestions

Cheers

EL

Offline RicharD

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2010, 05:47:23 pm »
Post up a link to the schemo por favor.

Lamp limiter = #1 safety tool.

The 6AU6 is a 7 pin pentode.  Consider it a step cousin to the EF86 although they're really quite different.

Offline elmore_lewis

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2010, 06:32:50 pm »
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 06:42:26 pm by elmore_lewis »

Offline RicharD

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2010, 08:47:48 pm »
Very interesting circuit.  I see why PRR suggested leaving it be.  Here's what I see that you have:

The dotted line box at the input that says "part of R1"  is an RIAA equalizer circuit.  This was used to compensate for the shrillness that comes with a vinyl cut.  V1 is a 6AU6 pentode.  Perhaps the most common of all audio tubes.  I think it's making a gain somewhere between 90 and 120 based on the RC chart located here.  http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/093/6/6AU6A.pdf  That's all pretty straight forward old school hifi stuff.  Next is the treble 1/2 of a Baxandall tone stack followed by 1/2 of a 12AU7 gain stage.  Counting on thumbs, we'll assume the signal loss of the treble stack .1 and the gain of V2a is 10.  They offset each other for an effective gain of 1.  Next is the bass 1/2 of a Baxandall followed by the other 1/2 of the 12AU7.  Same dealimabob as before.  The loss of the bass stack is offset by V2b and again call the gain 1.  I've never a Baxandall split up like this before.... I'm gonna say COOL!  V3 is another 12AU7 and this circuit is commonly referred to as a paraphase inverter. This is the section that splits the signal for the push-pull output.  Paraphase is not the most common PI in a guitar amp, but they can be found in Valcos, Dan Electros, and many others.  The last 2 bottles in the signal chain are a pair of cathode biased 6V6's.  There's 1 more tube which is the 5Y3 rectifier.  B+ is 310VDC which is lower than a Deluxe but not necessarily a bad thang.

Ok, so you have a cool little amp.  You need to decide how much you wanna mess with it.  It's best to work these thangs out backwards, or should I say from the outputs to the inputs.  The very 1st thing you ought to consider is the health of the power supply caps.  It looks like its a 40/40/20 can cap.  Those thangs are a tad expensive and electrolytic caps do fail with age.  If the amp is humming pretty bad, then that can needs to be replaced.  Another check is to pull all the tubes except for the 5Y3 rectifier.  Fire it up and measure B+.  It's gonna be considerably higher.  Now with the meter still attached, yank the power and see how quickly the voltage drops.  If it drops quickly, replace the caps.  A bad power supply can spoil everything.

I wouldn't mess with the output stage or the PI.  220 ohm on the cathodes of a pair of 6V6's is textbook.  The paraphase PI is too cool for school so I'd leave that too.

Baxandall tone stacks are not very common in geetar amps because they tend to be very flat in response.  Geetar amps like to jack with the mids a lot and typically there's a lot of low end roll off at like 150Hz.  12AU7's aren't very common in guitar amps either because of their low gain.  You could fairly easily scrap this.  Replace the 12AU7 with a 12AX7 and copy the Princeton preamp and tone stack.  Of course you won't want to stick that high gain 6AU6 back in front because you'll have waaaaay too much gain.

A few easy experiments:

Scrap that RIAA circuit at the input.  Leave C1 and R2 in place and hang the input jack right off of C1.

Change R23 to a 500K pot.  Ground 1 end, hook the other end up to C11, and connect the wiper to Pin7 of V3.  Viola!  Master volume.  If it operates backwards, swap the 2 end connections.  (Clip leads are your friend).

Change V2 to a 12AX7.  You've changed gain of each 1/2 from less than 10 to  roughly 17.  Expect distortion.

Put something like a 5uF cap across R9 and or R17.  Expect more distortion.  Your gain just increase to 55ish per stage.  It may squeal.  Now put the 12AU7 back in.  Your gain will be back to about 15 per stage.  This may totally suck whereas  overdriving tone stacks usually does. 

Better yet, leave V2 alone and put a bypass cap  (something like a 4.7uF) across  R3.  Experiment with different values.  It's only 1.6 volts there so you really can't hurt anything.  Lower values will cut more bass.  Marshall used a .68uF, Fender used a 15uF.  Hifi's might use a 100uF.  That's probably the simplest coolest thang to try.

Gotta run.  Have Fun!

-Richard

 

Offline PRR

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2010, 09:09:17 pm »
> dotted line box at the input that says "part of R1"  is an RIAA equalizer circuit.

No. It is Loudness Compensation. Full-up the response is flat, way-down the response has treble and bass boost to compensate the ear's soft-level hearing.

(Where's the RIAA? In the ceramic needle. And it was not RIAA yet, and not for 78.)

> 6AU6 pentode.  ... I think it's making a gain somewhere between 90 and 120 based on the RC chart

No cathode cap. (note no cathode caps except the 6V6 stage!) Gain is probably half what the chart says.

> a Baxandall

James. Or perhaps pre-James, because James seems to have been the one to publish how to do both ends in one network with "acceptable" interaction. (But this 2-part design has NO interaction....)

Missing from schematic: the black lead of the OT must be grounded.

I suspect it is a VERY "musical" amp as-is.

Moreso if you have that speaker array.... this was a very cool phonograph, high in GE's product line. Clean, classic not-cheap.

Main design questions:

Enough gain?

Too much hiss?

The hiss is probably fine as-is (assuming clean tubes, good contacts, proper voltages).

I figure it needs ~~200mV input to make the full 10 Watts goodness. Older (pre-rock) amps sometimes gave 50mV sensitivity. Classic early-1960s amps tended to 20mV which suits most styles. Mondo-overdrive amps may have lower-mV sensitivity, but I don't think this amp's karma swings that way.

But.... does it play well as is? If you have to beat the strings to get "loud", you might want more gain. OTOH some players, some hot pickups, 200mV sensitivity may be ample.

To get more gain and looseness:

Bypass some or all of V1 V2a V2b cathode resistors with 10uFd 25V caps. That will get you under 50mV needed for full output. You might want to try one of them at 0.68uFd to lift treble above bass, classic lead-guitar style.

Change R24 to 2.7K, R26 to 12K. This lightens the NFB which keeps the 6V6es tame (yet preserves the DC bias), so the power stage is less tame. Also raises gain a bit.

With these changes, hiss will be more audible and the Volume pot won't make the hiss go away when playing small. You want to move the volume pot one stage higher, after V1. There's several ways to do it; most elegant may be to replace R8 with a 250K volume pot. Now re-build V1's input network the gitar-usual way (input jack, no cap, 1Meg to ground, 68K to grid).

> It may squeal.

Yes indeedy. GE made it stable enough for 200mV use, but as we get close to 20mV sensitivity we may find that parts and leads should be spread out more.

Ah: three stages fed from C10A filter. This won't motorboat because V2 gain is very low, stock. Start goosing the gains, mmmmmm.... it may stay stable because the tone-stack loss is comparable to the hottest 12AU7 gain. Highest-gain 12AX7 in V2 may need another decoupledr for V1.

> Change R23 to a 500K pot.

Works too. But level at V3 grid is quite high. If preamp gain is high so that Volume must be turned-down, V2b may overload before the mighty 6V6es do. I'd lean closer to V1 at first. However if preamp distortion is cool, then do both: V2a grid and V3a grid, and balance V2 versus 6V6 distress.

Offline RicharD

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2010, 09:08:45 am »
>No. It is Loudness Compensation.
DOH!  I didn't even consider the age or look at it that closely.  I read phonograph and just ass*u*me*ed.

>James. Or perhaps pre-James
I've always wandered what the difference between a James and a Baxandall was.  Looks like the same animal to me.




Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2010, 11:00:32 am »
I've always wandered what the difference between a James and a Baxandall was.  Looks like the same animal to me.

Feedback loop. The Baxandall is the James circuit but incorporated within the local feedback loop of a tube being used as an opamp (more or less).

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2010, 10:57:17 am »
I'll need to read up "forming caps" I reckon

No, not with new caps. Yeah, I know what's floating about out there.

"Forming" or "re-forming" is of value when you have electrolytic caps in a device that has sat unused for many years. Applied voltage is what actually forms the insulating dielectric inside the cap (that's what makes it a capacitor and not a short-circuit). Anyway, if no voltage has been applied for a long time, that dielectric can disappear in electrolytic caps, so that if you apply full voltage with no current limit, you have a decent quality short-circuit and damaged caps/other amp parts.

So you can reform by slowly raising the applied voltage (low voltage = likely low current), or you can apply full voltage but current-limited (by a lightbulb limiter or actual current-limiting circuit). Small current means no damage, the dielectric layer "reforms" and you're off to the races. With a new cap, you assume it is safe to apply full rated voltage. I've never needed to form caps in a new build in maybe 15 years of messing with this stuff.

Offline PRR

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2010, 11:10:09 am »
.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 11:12:16 am by PRR »

Offline elmore_lewis

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2010, 04:46:51 pm »
Hey Thanks HBP,PRR and BL

I'll check off "reform caps" and move on.
I see where the "lightbulb limiter" comes into play,makes sense now

cool stuff !  Grazie!

EL
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 03:01:48 pm by elmore_lewis »

Offline softwarejanitor

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2010, 08:36:59 am »
Hey Thanks HBP,PRR and BL

I'll check off "reform caps" and move on.
I see where the "lightbulb limiter" comes into play,makes sense now

cool stuff !  Grazie!

EL

I don't know if it is bad to resurrect an old thread...  But I've got the same amp chassis, as well as a couple other similar Motorola console chassis (HS-544 & HS621).  So far the main change I've made to the circuit is increasing the value of the feedback resistor (R26) from 5.6k to 22k.  That seems to increase the volume quite a bit.  My next mod is to eliminate the loudness control circuit by replacing the volume pot with a plain 1M pot and replacing the 12AU7 at V2 with a 12AT7.

I'm interested to hear what you've done so far with yours and what the results have been.

Offline PRR

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2010, 04:34:18 pm »
> replacing the volume pot with a plain 1M pot

No, just disconnect the stuff hanging on the taps.

Offline softwarejanitor

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2010, 04:15:24 pm »
> replacing the volume pot with a plain 1M pot

No, just disconnect the stuff hanging on the taps.

I didn't know if that would work or not.  I also wasn't sure if it wouldn't just be easier to swap the whole pot out rather than try to remove the package from the back.

Offline softwarejanitor

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2010, 10:35:25 pm »
I just got the 12AT7 tubes today... tried swapping one in place of the 12AU7 at V2 in my Motorola HS-475 chassis... Also I just clipped off the loudness adjustment circuit from the back of the volume pot... The only other circuit mod was swapping a 22k for the original 5.6k feedback resistor at R26. All I can say is WOW! Great tone with nice warm breakup at medium to high volume now with no pedal in front of it. That's with a fairly powerful humbucker, so I may still need a pedal for single coils... But at any rate I'm extremely satisfied!

I'm going to yank the HS-621 chassis out of my other amp and clip the loudness circuit off, swap the 10k feedback resistor I'd put in at R26 for a 22k and swap in a 12AT7 at V2...  It should rock too!


Offline PRR

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2010, 11:41:21 pm »
12AT7 in V2 hole.

R26 higher to taste; though little effect past 20K or so. 

Bypass R9 and R17 (V2 pins 8 and 3) with >5uFd >10V caps, "-" to ground.

C2 should probably be 0.1u, 0.2u (>200V).... that 0.01u may be to reduce acoustic feedback from huge woofer to turntable.

That should give a ton of gain.

And the gain stagger through the tone stages may give interesting sweetness.

Those cap-values give "FULL" bass. It is likely that for guitar, anything bigger than a Twelve will be "too boomy"; C2 may really like to be 0.01u, and one or both of the R9 R17 bypasses may like to be the 0.68u "Marshall cap" or even a 0.1u zinger.

All this gain may hiss even when turned-down. Skip past the input pot into V1 grid (via 33K). Put a 250K Audio pot between C4 (which might now be upped to 0.02u) and the R6-C5 node.

Offline softwarejanitor

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2010, 10:28:42 am »
12AT7 in V2 hole.

R26 higher to taste; though little effect past 20K or so. 

Bypass R9 and R17 (V2 pins 8 and 3) with >5uFd >10V caps, "-" to ground.

C2 should probably be 0.1u, 0.2u (>200V).... that 0.01u may be to reduce acoustic feedback from huge woofer to turntable.

That should give a ton of gain.

And the gain stagger through the tone stages may give interesting sweetness.

Those cap-values give "FULL" bass. It is likely that for guitar, anything bigger than a Twelve will be "too boomy"; C2 may really like to be 0.01u, and one or both of the R9 R17 bypasses may like to be the 0.68u "Marshall cap" or even a 0.1u zinger.

All this gain may hiss even when turned-down. Skip past the input pot into V1 grid (via 33K). Put a 250K Audio pot between C4 (which might now be upped to 0.02u) and the R6-C5 node.

Thanks for the suggestions, I may have to try a couple of them at some point, although I'm not sure I really need much more gain than I'm getting now...  If anything I'd like the tone to be a little brighter as I still am running the treble pot at 7-8 and the bass pot at 3-4.

The cabinets I've built for the two Motorola chassis I have running are combos with 2 12" drivers in them.  The HS-475 is running into two Motorola Golden Voice labeled Heppners that came out of a different record player console.  The HS-621 is running into two Oxfords that came out of an organ.  At first I wasn't sure the Heppners were going to work out as with the loudness control the sound was kind of boomy and almost compressed until it was cranked up.  But now with the changes I've already made they sound great...  I can't wait until I have time to make the same mods to the other amp.

At this point the amp is very quiet when not being played.  No significant hiss or hum, at least with a humbucking equipped guitar, and even relatively little hum with single coils.

Offline softwarejanitor

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2010, 12:39:16 pm »
Another idea for different tubes in this...  instead of the current V1 6AU6 -> V2 12AT7 -> V3 12AU7   What do y'all think about V1  6AU6 -> V2 12AY7 -> V3 12AY7 ?

All 3 of the pre-amp tubes would be of similar amplification factor that way...  36, 44, 44  instead of the current  36, 60, 20.  The original was 36, 20, 20.

12AY7s seem to be less common and more expensive than 12AT7s though, although still fairly plentiful and not ridiculously pricey...

Hmmm...  maybe V1 6AU6 -> V2 12AT7 -> V3 12AY7 ?    36, 60, 44?

Offline softwarejanitor

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2010, 10:39:30 pm »
I finally got around to taking some pics...


HS-475 212


HS-621 212






Pedal board
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 08:55:36 pm by softwarejanitor »

Offline softwarejanitor

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2010, 12:27:04 pm »
Here are some pics of the HS-621 chassis before I started modifying it for guitar use:















Offline elmore_lewis

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2010, 06:22:19 pm »
hey softwarejanitor,

sorry so late to the show


yep I got my hs475 up and running thanks to this forum !

 I removed all the phono input stuff and did the usual 68k,1meg 

moved the volume control after the 6au6 as suggested by PRR

stuck the thing into a Bell and Howell Filmosound box I found at a a garage sale
 
plugged in my geetar, and man it sounds killer!!  blues heaven

tweed tone for $100 and change

I did try  both 12at7's and ay7's  but always went back to the 12au7......just sounded right with em'

it's relatively hum free and sounds good when recorded


cheers,

EL


Offline softwarejanitor

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2010, 08:36:02 pm »
Nice...  I've got several of these amp chassis now as well as an EL84 PP Motorola.  My mods have been covered in this and other threads here.  Mainly removal of "loudness" circuit from the back of the volume pot, changing the feedback resistor at R26 from 5.6k Ohm to 22k Ohm and swapping a 12AT7 for the 12AU7 at V2.  Those changes pretty much get me to where I need to be.

These Motorolas do really make killer guitar amps for a budget price.

Offline elmore_lewis

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2010, 09:47:11 pm »
Good stuff...I'm gonna try the changin' the feedback resistor and see if I can get closer to tone nirvana......



cheers man,

EL

Offline Frankenamp

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2010, 11:26:20 pm »
Congrats- That looks really nice!
This problem calls for a bigger hammer!

Offline softwarejanitor

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Re: Phono to guitar amp conversion
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2010, 09:38:52 am »
Good stuff...I'm gonna try the changin' the feedback resistor and see if I can get closer to tone nirvana......



cheers man,

EL

Changing the feedback resistor made a huge difference for me.  You may want to try tube rolling again with the larger feedback resistor value.

 


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