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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Fender Deluxe and headroom  (Read 8310 times)

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Offline unclerny

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Fender Deluxe and headroom
« on: April 02, 2010, 02:05:52 pm »
Hi Forum.  I'm trying to get more clean and volume out of a Del Rev that I previously did a power cap job on and now the owner feels it has too much drive too early and from 5 and higher it pretty much only has more drive and not more volume.  The trick to me is that he's using an Epi LP with medium to high gain actives in it.

Personally I think he's using too powerful a guitar and he's hitting full saturation too early.  I found that it sounds pretty much like I'd expect with singles, P90s and HB pups and singles sound the best to me, which is the way I feel about most Fender tube amps.

I checked the bias when it came in and found it running 40m.A. which I turned down to around 25m.A. and that helped but it's not much different.

Is it possible the 6V6s are damaged some what from running too hot?  I think I'll try another pair now that I'm thinking of it.  I tried some 6L6GCs in there adjusted to about 35m.A. (50-60%) and it sounded worse and I didn't want to risk the OT at full power so I took them back out.

Am I on the right track that the amp is just doing what it should do and he's just driving it too hard to have any headroom left?

Tim
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Offline tommytornado

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Re: Fender Deluxe and headroom
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2010, 02:50:55 pm »
Tell him vintage (and RI's) Fender amps were designed to match up with their low output single coil guitars..  i.e.  4.5-5.5K ohms.  PAF humbuckers = 8Kish..  He's probably slamming the front end with 10-15K ohm pickups.  Of course it's going to overdrive, V1-2A is getting slammed with 2-3 times more than it was designed to handle.  The #2/low input hole is -3dB and in that time was designed for Gibsons.  He should be plugging into it!  And who plays a deluxe reverb with friggin active pickups?

Offline jjasilli

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Re: Fender Deluxe and headroom
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2010, 02:59:00 pm »
it has too much drive too early and from 5 and higher it pretty much only has more drive and not more volume. 

I think you are right, for what that's worth.  At some point on the knobs, max clean headroom will be reached, after which point you're only going to get more overdrive.  You can play around with component values inside the amp to change that point on the dials.  But if you're getting overdrive then you've aleady hit max headroom (unless something is actually defective).

The DR is known for this "problem".  If a guitarist plays with a loud band, the DR lacks clean headroom.  But a bigger amp gets too loud before it will overdrive.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 03:08:01 pm by jjasilli »

Offline FYL

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Re: Fender Deluxe and headroom
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2010, 03:09:56 pm »
Quote
And who plays a deluxe reverb with friggin active pickups?

Clapton Strat into Boss FDR-1 Deluxe Reverb stompbox into Fender Deluxe Reverb RI. That's the sound, man. Or not.

 :huh:


Offline pullshocks

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Re: Fender Deluxe and headroom
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2010, 03:24:53 pm »
My main guitar has the Duncan JB+Jazz pickup combo and on my SFDR above 4 or 5 it gets pretty distorted.

Offline fud

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Re: Fender Deluxe and headroom
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2010, 03:42:37 pm »
You may be able to suppress breakup by 1 notch on the volume knob by unbypassing and/or increasing the cathode resistor on the second triode.  It's still driving 6V6's, after all, so it likely won't make a huge difference.

Offline bluesbear

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Re: Fender Deluxe and headroom
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2010, 08:32:11 am »
I made a huge difference to my Deluxe clone by changing out the B+ dropping resistors to get higher silverface voltages to the phase invertor and preamp. That helped a lot. You could also raise the values of the preamp cathode resistors. However, to restate the obvious, you're not gonna get a lot of clean out of a DR with that guitar with those pickups, no matter what you do. Mine is a non-trem or reverb, one channel with the higher voltages I mentioned and I can hang with modern Fenders (Blues Deluxe, etc), warm and pretty clean, but it'd be a stretch to get that with a real Fender DR. Also, I use vintage style pickups with standard output. Maybe 6L6's?
Dave

Offline 6G6

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Re: Fender Deluxe and headroom
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2010, 08:36:55 am »
If he just wants clean, turn down.
 If he wants clean and loud, Twin Reverbs are generally
 cheaper than Delux Reverbs, especially used.

Offline unclerny

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Re: Fender Deluxe and headroom
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2010, 10:31:28 am »
A lot of good suggestions there.  Thanks guys for confirming what I was thinking.

I'm gonna go over it one more time real carefully and make sure I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing and then talk to him.

And we have a beautiful Twin in here with the ultra linear xmer.  It actually sounds better than the last  MVolSF twin we had in here with a standard xmer.  I was surprised at the musical break up it has.

Thanks Tim
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Fender Deluxe and headroom
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2010, 01:39:30 pm »
I'll also concur that clean output volume is a function of the output tubes, supply voltage, load resistance (to an extent) and output tube bias. Bluesbear is telling you probably the only thing you can try without major surgery to adjust the output stage for more clean volume.

Usually, the actual clean acoustic volume is not the issue in these cases for a non-technical player... usually it's the perception of "headroom" or lack thereof based on the volume knob setting at which the amp starts to distort noticeably.

Fud told you the first big trick: look at removing the 1st stage bypass cap and/or making the cathode resistor larger. I would certainly try to make that cathode resistor a bit larger, as it allows the input stage to handle a hotter signal. But at the input tube the bias is probably large enough to handle it anyway. In that case, you just don't want a ton of amplification.

You might also consider lowering the value of the plate load resistor to reduce output voltage swing.

The signal next hits a volume pot, and you can do some trickery there. I think Rene Martinez tricked SRV a little when he was being difficult about what his amp was sounding like at a specific knob setting by loosening the setscrew on the knob and moving it to indicate a different number at a point that gave the sound SRV wanted. I've seen people that have pet knob settings, who set, say, the Treble on 7 on every amp no matter what the amp's actual voice, then complain the amp doesn't sound right. If they adjusted the knob up or down, they could get "their sound" but they have a mental block that says "a good amp gets my sound when I set this knob to 'X'..."

But just moving the knob is a little cheesy and the customer will surely figure out this was all you did to "fix his amp." But if you want to reduce the signal output from the pot when it is full-up, you can install a resistor between the coupling cap from the previous stage and the input of the pot. That way, full up will never be the full signal strength; there will always be some roll-off. But to really adjust that, you'd ideally be playing through the amp with his guitar, so you will know the knob setting at which the amp starts distorting. This is where a resistor subsitution or decade box really shines. If you know the output level of his pickups, you can fake it somewhat with a signal generator set accordingly.

And you'll want to consider raising the 2nd stage cathode resistor and/or removing the bypass cap for the same reasons you would the first gain stage. Raising the cathode resistor to increase the stage's bias may be even more important on the 2nd stage if it is needing to handle a hotter than normal signal.

There is a balance to be struck with all of these things, and the only sure way of knowing is to adjust them while his normal signal level is being applied to the input. In a perfect world, you'd have 3 to 5 substitution boxes and an alligator clip on the bypass cap legs to dial in each resistor location as he played through the amp until the amp stayed clean on a high enough volume setting for him.

Offline The_Gaz

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Re: Fender Deluxe and headroom
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2010, 01:52:28 pm »
Put a 12AU7 in V1 and see if he likes it. Instant 'headroom'. By far the easiest solution.

Offline bigdaddy

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Re: Fender Deluxe and headroom
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2010, 08:24:10 pm »
A BFDR is not really a clean machine, most 6V6 amps aren't and were not meant to be. They were low output amps designed to take low output guitars.

Now in 2010 we forgot these little facts, or people who were not around those days don't know what those amps were for in original form. Like a champ amp, it's was not designed as the ultimate small recording studio amp it was a low powered practice amp for the beginner, now it has been transformer into so many versions of great small low powered recording amps. The latest is a Marshall 5W that looks great. We are so used to supped up hot rodded versions of everything now.

The BF/SF DR is what it is......you want clean headroom with a similar sound buy a twinreverb or a bandmaster head. If you like the idea of a lower powered clean amp with a 12" speaker the new reissues are much more like that and sound very good with new tubes and a better speaker. Other wise build one from scratch with 6L6GCs, bigger OT and an old K/E120 or one of the JBL E120 copies from Eminence or Beyma. Higher voltages to the preamp really kill the tone as I found out when blackfacing a SFDR. Those dropping resistors were SO important to the sound. The reverb and tremolo won't work as well with the higher voltages and the amp will sound much more sterile. The key to more clean headroom is the power tubes, output transformer and speaker with those amps, IMO. Even just adding one of those JBL type speakers will help, everybody always looks inside the amp first and it's almost always the speakers that make the biggest difference.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Fender Deluxe and headroom
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2010, 03:39:46 pm »
The BF/SF DR is what it is......you want clean headroom with a similar sound buy a twinreverb or a bandmaster head. If you like the idea of a lower powered clean amp with a 12" speaker the new reissues are much more like that and sound very good with new tubes and a better speaker. Other wise build one from scratch with 6L6GCs, bigger OT and an old K/E120 or one of the JBL E120 copies from Eminence or Beyma.

The funny thing is you're basically telling them to build a Pro Reverb, Vibroverb or Bandmaster, which is pretty much what you told them to get in the first place. You know, there's just no getting around the truth...  :grin:

Offline unclerny

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Re: Fender Deluxe and headroom
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2010, 09:26:47 am »
Hi Guys, sorry I didn't get  back sooner, I've injured my right hand and couldn't hold a pen for 3 days.  I'm not supposed to be typing now but the meds are doing their thing.  lol

Anyway, back on topic.

I love all the suggestions.  I think ultimately we're still coming down to a guy wanting an amp to do something it wasn't meant to do.  I hear this more than I like.  As the one gentleman said, ppl get it in their heads the knob should be on 7 regardless.

Something I haven't heard from anyone was maybe the speaker is garbage.  It is one of the blue label Fenders, ceramic.  Not my favorite.  It seems like every DR that's come into our shop with great tone has had a Jensen Vibranto in it.  I know it's a replacement speaker from the day but the one's I've seen have all been Alnico and they're so damn sweet and smooth.  Any thoughts that maybe what he's really complaining about is the amp sounds bad "distorted" because the speaker sucks?

I've found so many customers, and people in general, don't know the right words to express just what they mean.  Distortion = Speaker that blows?  Our lead singer in our band was having a huge problem with her monitor sound because it sounded like it "needed more mids".  I never could figure it out because they sounded fine to me.  Then she said it lacked "brilliance and didn't stand out".  DING  Presence not mids at all.  Added 12k plus and problem solved.  Key word brilliance.

Tim
One Man's Distortion is Another Man's Reality.

Offline phsyconoodler

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Re: Fender Deluxe and headroom
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2010, 10:19:29 am »
C12N = vibranto.Same speaker.

  Tell your friend to get a strat or a Twin reverb.A'int no way to get active pickups to NOT drive that amp.He might get a little more by using the low input.
  I had a metal head play one of my amps and he made everything overdrive at 2.He used a very thick pick and had such a heavy hand that the amp was whining even at low settings.I couldn't duplicate his sound even at 8 on the dial.I tried hammering the guitar but no way could I duplicate his touch,or should I say 'hammer' technique.
  His nickname is 'kelly the bastard'.He can overdrive anything.
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Offline JayB

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Re: Fender Deluxe and headroom
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2010, 12:58:22 pm »
C12N = vibranto.Same speaker.

  Tell your friend to get a strat or a Twin reverb.A'int no way to get active pickups to NOT drive that amp.He might get a little more by using the low input.
  I had a metal head play one of my amps and he made everything overdrive at 2.He used a very thick pick and had such a heavy hand that the amp was whining even at low settings.I couldn't duplicate his sound even at 8 on the dial.I tried hammering the guitar but no way could I duplicate his touch,or should I say 'hammer' technique.
  His nickname is 'kelly the bastard'.He can overdrive anything.


:laugh: There is no dynamics with him huh.
You're going to hell faster than Britney Spears running to a Barber shop

 


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