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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: SoZo electrolytics  (Read 29610 times)

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Offline alerich

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2010, 08:08:39 pm »
Funny, I did the same thing on my Super Reverb build.  Mostly Xicons with a couple of Mallories in the signal path except for PS Orange Drops for the PI->power tube coupling caps.  I don't recall the reasoning behind the choice but the customer loves it.

For clarity's sake the cap stacking guy actually uses 2 smaller caps in parallel where one cap would normally go. The two caps sum to give the value the one cap would provide and he chooses the two caps based on his own perceived sonic impressions of each cap. In theory I get his idea but in practice I'd have to hear it to believe it.
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Offline plexi50

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2010, 08:32:28 pm »
We would need PRR here to mathamatically really break down the rate of any parallel cap effects in a PI

I have done it to slow down tremelos that were too fast but never anywhere else in a tube amp

That is interesting though to think that you may actually get some sag or magical good vibes from doing this

I would have to hear it as well. I think a scope would be needed to verify any such voodoo going on

I will try it. Maybe there is some electro magnetic coupling occuring between (2) caps paralled together that can be heard

Who knows




Offline jerrydyer

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2010, 11:00:00 am »
You can build 2 identical amps with all identical components from same batches and they probably won't sound the same. They may (hopefully) both sound good, even great, but not quite the same. There is magic to this art! I sold a 1 channel BF Fender type amp to a jazz guy in Jersey City a couple years ago. It was almost all Xicon caps. He said it was the best amp he'd ever owned. I'm not saying Mallorys or ODs, etc, wouldn't have been different but maybe not as good for that particular casino jazzman. Who knows? "Better", "worse", even "different" tone is such a subjective thing, how can it really be quantified? I just know I get great results from good inexpensive caps. Hey, it worked for Fender, Trainwreak, D*mble. etc. I wont waste money on what I don't need. Of course, if they make a difference in someone elses design, then they make a diifierence. That's my point, actually. It's magic! I love that!!
Dave

yep   I did this exact thing with two hot rodded 2204 type circuits. they sounded different. Drives me crazy..

Offline tubesornothing

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2010, 11:06:56 am »
Dont forget the tubes - the tolerance between tubes is HUGE.  Two amps with all the same other components, with each component hand checked will sound drastically different with different set of tubes.


Offline jjasilli

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2010, 11:24:41 am »
You can build 2 identical amps with all identical components from same batches and they probably won't sound the same. They may (hopefully) both sound good, even great, but not quite the same. There is magic to this art! I sold a 1 channel BF Fender type amp to a jazz guy in Jersey City a couple years ago. It was almost all Xicon caps. He said it was the best amp he'd ever owned. I'm not saying Mallorys or ODs, etc, wouldn't have been different but maybe not as good for that particular casino jazzman. Who knows? "Better", "worse", even "different" tone is such a subjective thing, how can it really be quantified? I just know I get great results from good inexpensive caps. Hey, it worked for Fender, Trainwreak, D*mble. etc. I wont waste money on what I don't need. Of course, if they make a difference in someone elses design, then they make a diifierence. That's my point, actually. It's magic! I love that!!
Dave
yep   I did this exact thing with two hot rodded 2204 type circuits. they sounded different. Drives me crazy..

There is a scientific explanation I ran into somewhere (www.guitarnuts.com  ???), so long as your using batches of parts with a wide tolerance.  Most part are 20%; so a nominal 500K pot may actually be 400 - 600K, e.g.  Filter caps and trannies can be off as much as 50% for some specs.  These variations might cause audible tonal differences.

Offline Fresh_Start

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2010, 02:54:02 pm »
JJ - your point about tolerances makes sense.  If every resistor and cap throughout the amp is subject to just a 5% variation +/-, all those little changes are going to add up even in something as simple as a 5F2-A. 

How precise are speakers in terms of each one sounding exactly the same?  Don't know, but now I'm wondering...

Anyone who has experimented with substituting tubes knows that no two tubes are exactly the same in terms of tone (at least preamp tubes).  Again, throw in 2 or 3 preamp tubes and you've got another multiplier of subtle differences.

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Offline Structo

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #56 on: April 20, 2010, 06:11:51 pm »
Sometimes I notice that people lump all orange drop type capacitors together, disregarding the different dielectric materials used.

Basically Orange Drops use either polyester or polypropylene.

These can either be film or metalized film.

The 6PS polyester caps are popular for the Dumble circuits because they are polyester 600v caps.
They seem to be a very good high voltage stable cap that offers good tone for these amps.


The 715P polypropylene are also used quite a bit in guitar amps.

Both of these are good DC coupling caps for guitar audio circuits.
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Offline bigdaddy

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #57 on: April 20, 2010, 10:07:52 pm »
I did a very simple test on a BF champ clone. I took a turret strip and put all the caps I could find on it. It was a long strip and I think I ended up using 2 so there had to have been about 12+ different caps and they all measured close to .022mfd(except for some older caps I had). On the other end I just left the bare wire and used a clip with a wire on it connected to the gird resistor, then to the power tube. I would grab the clip and change caps really fast because they were so close together then play some. I knew after an hour or so my ears would be blown out and I would not be able to tell the difference. I learned that from recording. I did this again the next day or day after, it was a while ago so I'm not sure.

I was shocked, figuratively of course at the change in amp tone from one cap to another. I wrote it down (not in detail)and did not look at the paper again. I did the same test and jotted(really just a scribble not a long explanation) it down and the conclusions were the same with both tests. I had NO preconceived notions and although my first thoughts that maybe certain caps would sound better and they actually sounded worse. I thought PIO would be king and it was the worst one, 2 different manufacturers. The King was the Jupiter which had the good qualities of both the OD and Mallory. I also used a few other OD(714-715) types and yellow ones from other companies, all kinds, whatever is being sold from vendors like Doug and Ted Weber(he was alive at the time) and the older SOZO not the handmade ones. Each cap had a certain quality good and bad except the PIO and the ones from Ted which were Mallory 150 copies which were just bad. The Sozos were OK and so was the ones I call chiclets that Doug sells(Xicon)were better than I thought but had NO character, kind of flat. The best were the OD 715 and Mallory 150s, the Jupiter had the best of both. The Mallory was warmer and the highs were smoother but there was junk after the note a little unpleasant distortion, both ODs were great but the highs were harsh, but the sound was clear without the after taste. The Jupiter had the good qualities of both and I was shocked because I thought they were full of crap until tested them.

I then ordered a bunch and changed them out and each amp sounded a bit better overall. Most amps had a mix of OD and Mallory before I changed to Jupiters. I also use a lot of SOZO handmade caps and their blues are a bit closer to the original blue caps than the Jupiters for a true BF fender sound. I think the Jupiters might be closer to the Astrons. In that test were some old caps to but they were not .022 so I did not really include them. They did sound better then most of the other caps except the OD, Mallory and Jupiter.

I suggest everybody just try it and see for themselves before they come to any conclusions. In fact I think I will try it again just to make sure I'm not full of crap.

Offline imaradiostar

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2010, 01:09:42 am »
I have multiple amps out there and in my own stable running just fine with two photoflash caps in series for the first cap off of the diodes. I was poor and junker disposable cameras were free! I haven't seen a single cap failure and I haven't noticed a tonal difference from more "normal" caps.

I recently purchased 10, 22, 47, and 100nF caps from digikey in lots of 100. They're epcos brand and I purchased them because they're tiny and they're blue (which clearly looks and sounds better) and they only have 10mm lead centers. I have an abundance of hollow and double turrets that are smaller than the normal ones we see in guitar amps. These caps are a perfect fit for compact/carefully arranged amplifier designs.

As an example- a plexi board using my tiny caps and layout is only 7 inches long, perfect for small lower power amps. The original, by comparison, was around 10 and a half inches long. For a simple circuit like a plexi it's not such a big deal. When you're trying to pack reverb and multiple channels onto a small board, small caps can be a lot more helpful. As long as your turrets are 1.5 inches or less apart, they're perfect for hoffman and hiwatt style layouts which always seem to make people feel wamr and fuzzy about the inside of their amp.

For the record- I hate that 715p orange drops are so huge. Why can't they make something a touch smaller that's more easy to use? Oh wait, they do- They're called Xicon caps. CDE also has similar part that they advertise as a "better design" because of its improved performance and smaller size. Seems like a no-brainer!

jamie

Offline FYL

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2010, 09:13:15 am »
Quote
In fact I think I will try it again just to make sure I'm not full of crap.

Please do a proper *double blind* test.


Offline tommytornado

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #60 on: April 21, 2010, 09:47:06 am »
Big Daddy, Were the PIO's you tested the Russian NOS K40's or K42's?

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2010, 10:29:57 am »

Please do a proper *double blind* test.

I think you should make that your signature, just to keep from having to type it all the time!  :laugh:

Offline tubesornothing

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #62 on: April 21, 2010, 11:02:56 am »

Please do a proper *double blind* test.


I expect that most will just swap in another type of cap, and play the guitar and see how it sounds.  Basically little or no control.

*sigh*  science and engineering out the window.

Offline simonallaway

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #63 on: April 21, 2010, 12:44:57 pm »
I expect that most will just swap in another type of cap, and play the guitar and see how it sounds.  Basically little or no control.

This might be where the 're-amp' concept would help. Record some representative guitar using a DI box (or whatever) straight into a decent recording device. Then play it back through a re-amp device (like this http://www.reamp.com/) so you can repeat the very same source after you swap the caps.

You could even do a kind of subtractive difference between each recording to find the changes in response.
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Offline tubesornothing

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #64 on: April 21, 2010, 04:15:55 pm »
You could even do a kind of subtractive difference between each recording to find the changes in response.

That's an interesting idea!

Offline The_Gaz

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #65 on: April 21, 2010, 10:45:57 pm »
Quote
This might be where the 're-amp' concept would help. Record some representative guitar using a DI box (or whatever) straight into a decent recording device. Then play it back through a re-amp device (like this http://www.reamp.com/) so you can repeat the very same source after you swap the caps.

Even easier if you have a loop pedal, which is what I do.

Offline bigdaddy

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #66 on: April 22, 2010, 02:40:08 am »
I happen to be a very scientific person and believe in science. But guitar paying is not science for me it's all about feel, I'm first and foremost a blues player. All the engineer types miss the point, you're too caught up in technical issues. Yes the double blind test is the standard and if it were a drug or a true scientific test I would say by all means use the double blind method.

But this is guitar playing and it seems people forget that and become more into the hi-fi aspect. I plug my guitar in and I turn the volume to 10, I turn my guitar to 10 and then I wail out grinding each note with my finger harder and harder into the fretboard. Then I rip some faster riff off and go back into trying to make my guitar talk from my heart. That's not science......so when I change the clip to another cap either the amp sings my tune or it doesn't and I can hear every little nuance.

I totally understand what they were saying at that symposium and they were correct. But there is that one guy who can hear the difference as the man said. Am I that guy? I'd like to think so, after playing Fender and Marshall amps of almost every kind for 40 years. Owning countless Fender but mostly Gibson guitars, countless LesPauls and ES-335s, flying Vs, SGs and you name it. I read a story that was corroborated about SRV, while recording he was using a bunch of amps as usual, hooked together and he could hear exactly which amp wasn't right. He said so and so amp isn't working right and he was right. How did he know all through that noise that it was that particular amp? I bet because when he went to bend a note and something did not happen that usually does and he knew right away which the culprit was. SRV had no technical knowledge at all but his sound is one of the most copied, as is EVH. And I bet EVH can tell which cap sounds better for him without a double blind test.

So do your double blind test but if you do, pick out the best guitar players you know and don't leave it to people who build amps but to people who use them and play at a high level. Same as race cars, the engineers don't drive like a professional driver does and I bet he doesn't need a double blind test to tell him which suspension/tire/gear combination is right for that track in that weather condition.

When CBS bought Fender and all the old timers left including anybody who actually played guitar their amps became more and more toneless and horrible. I talked to a salesman who was there in those days. He was working for Randall amps at the time and said as much basicially. Eventually nobody would buy one and they went out of business for a while. Even hiring some hot shot amp gurus did not help, they made things worse. Because they did not hire one guitar player as a consultant, they hired engineers and amp gurus. Without engineers nothing can be built. It's the engineer who builds things FOR people not indifferent and perfunctory to them.

Even if you record your tests and do everything scientificially correct it doesn't mean anything because y'all missed the point. For a guitar player it's about the feel to the sound. You can't record that, it's a personal thing that each player feels. If you can't grasp what I am talking about my guess is that your guitar playing ability is limited. No big deal just it is what it is man.

One PIO was a Rusky and the other wasn't, it was more expensive and I was a bit pissed about it, I think I threw it away in disgust or put it in one of my guitars??????.

Offline tubesornothing

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #67 on: April 22, 2010, 07:28:38 am »
 :rolleyes:


No room for being an engineer/science dude and a guitar player in that one!

Actually the thing that annoys me most about your post is that your opinion is just as bad as the scientific types who say that objective test are the only way to go.  It is close minded.  Have you ever done a double blind test?  You say that the scientific types are missing the point and their guitar playing is limited.  Open up your mind man, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 07:38:24 am by tubesornothing »

Offline tubesornothing

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #68 on: April 22, 2010, 07:47:34 am »
For your amusement:

Closed minded scientific type:

"If you cant measure it/prove it, it does not exists and never will exist"



Closed minded artsy type:

"If you cant feel it/hear it there is something wrong with you"



All close minded types:

"I am right, you are wrong and you will never be able to convince me otherwise"



Open minded types:

"I guess you are all right, and you are all wrong,  Me too. ...so if I am wrong, that means..."


Offline FYL

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2010, 08:17:08 am »
"If you can't repeatedly find a subjective difference in a proper double blind test, then you can be pretty sure that there's no difference"
 :angel


Offline simonallaway

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #70 on: April 22, 2010, 10:16:22 am »
I happen to be a very scientific person and believe in science. But guitar paying is not science for me it's all about feel, I'm first and foremost a blues player. All the engineer types miss the point, you're too caught up in technical issues.

Nobody is talking about "belief" or getting "caught up in technical issues". And I'm quite sure nobody will argue that guitar playing is not about "feel".

To test pretty much anything (and in my day job that is software, but it applies to amps too) one requires as much repeatability and determinism as you can afford. In other words, if you change too much at once between tests, how do you know what's making a difference? This was a discussion about removing a variable in the equation, namely "they guy playing the guitar" so you can focus on the results.

Quantifying the results to make them objective is an entirely different matter.
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Offline bigdaddy

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #71 on: April 22, 2010, 11:36:56 am »
I think people miss my point.

There is room for both and both have merit. It is knowing when and what is to be used were.

The mind of the engineer say, hey I have an extra triode and a place for 2 switches. What can I put in there?

The mind of the bean counter says why is there room make it smaller and cheaper. Who designed this thing?

The mind of the player says I just want an on/off switch and no more than 3 knobs. I just want to plug in and play not take a hour to find a good sound.

Offline phsyconoodler

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #72 on: April 22, 2010, 12:08:49 pm »
Quote:"I totally understand what they were saying at that symposium and they were correct. But there is that one guy who can hear the difference as the man said. Am I that guy? "

I hear the differences too.So do the players who play the amps I mod.
  when you get a comment like "I was going to sell the amp before you changed the coupling caps.Now it's my main amp and I'm keeping it forever"
  What did I do?Changed out some coupling caps in a Super Reverb.They were new polyester 'Mac' branded caps.I installed a complete set of Mojo Dijons.
  I heard the difference immediately and so did the customer.He has owned and played that amp since 1969.He has had caps installed but none of the caps came even remotely close to the Dijons.He tried for years to like that amp and nothing ever made it 'magic'.
  I did nothing else but change the coupling caps.
 There are differences and they are audible.Snake oil applies when the claims are unrealistic and the prices are exorbitant.
  That does not apply to the Mojo Dijons at all.
Phsycoacoustics?  Maybe.More than likely not.
   But would you trust a guy who's nickname is 'phsyco'?
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Offline G._Hoffman

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #73 on: April 22, 2010, 11:39:00 pm »
For your amusement:

Closed minded scientific type:

"If you cant measure it/prove it, it does not exists and never will exist"



Oxymoron.  No TRUE scientific mind would say anything like that.  They would say, "Show me the objective evidence and I'll believe it."  By definition, a truly scientific mind is an open mind.  If its not open, its not a scientific mind.  That doesn't mean there aren't people out there who THINK they are scientific who don't have open minds, of course.  That said, when there are large amounts of objective evidence that supports a theory, it will take extraordinary evidence to contradict.


Gabriel

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #74 on: April 23, 2010, 12:55:02 am »
Same as race cars, the engineers don't drive like a professional driver does and I bet he doesn't need a double blind test to tell him which suspension/tire/gear combination is right for that track in that weather condition.

I hope no drivers, team owners or their shop crews see this post.

Coming from Charlotte, NC, most of the NASCAR teams are based right north of me, in/around Mooresville and Concord, NC. Guess who builds all their cars? Guys and gals hired who graduated the motorsports engineering major at the Univ of North Carolina. They are some seriously fanactical mechanical engineers, and there's no guesswork involved in what they do, except for happy accidents that teach them something they never would have thought of on their own.

Naturally the driver has input. But there are scientific reasons why things work for them, and they don't leave it to chance. The car has to be perfect so that the driver just has to show up and do his part.

And did you know your speedometer perform a calculus operation? It takes the angular position of the axle, which (when the tire diameter is considered) indicates position. The the speedometer circuit takes the derivative of the position information fed to it and indicates your velocity (miles per hour, or change of position for a unit change of time). You and I don't care that it's calculus, but the first person to figure it out sure cared.

Of course you can hear and feel a difference with different parts. I do too. But I'm coming around more to FYL's mindset to make sure that psychology doesn't trick me into thinking something is better. That's because I bought into the hype and marketing when I was starting out and didn't know better, and have since seen that some of it was right, some wrong, and some outright lie. There's a lot of bogus stuff out there when it comes to guitars, amps and audio.

I guess the best statement of how I feel about this stuff is that science, engineering  and math is present all the time, even if one chooses to ignore it. But quantifying and calculating allows you to arrive at a workable solution faster that blind experiment. The key is to still retain some feeling of the artistic, so that when you have a solution given through calculation, you listen to it and can tell if it sounds like crap. And when it does, the science will inform your decision about how to change it to make it better.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 07:17:48 am by HotBluePlates »

Offline tubesornothing

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #75 on: April 23, 2010, 01:29:15 am »
For your amusement:

Closed minded scientific type:

"If you cant measure it/prove it, it does not exists and never will exist"

Oxymoron. 

Not at all - it says "closed minded" scientific type.  "open minded" scientific types are...  ah... open minded.

BTW.  Lots of people refute lots of things when in the face of overwhelming evidence.  Think of your favorite recent "war".

Offline G._Hoffman

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #76 on: April 23, 2010, 04:27:52 am »
Not at all - it says "closed minded" scientific type.

My point is simply that if you have a closed mind, you don't have a scientific mind - by definition.  Now, that doesn't mean there aren't people who THINK their mind is scientific who are closed minded, simply that they are wrong.  An open mind is the most important point of the scientific method.

Richard Dawkins tells a great story about a professor of his who had spent his whole career studying and professing a hypothesis (a rather obscure piece of cellular biology - truly not important to the story).  A scientist from the US came over to Oxford and gave a speech completely destroying the professor's hypothesis.  The professor stood up after the talk, walked up to the American guy, shook his hand, and said, "Thank you.  I've been wrong for 20 years."  

The students in the audience stood up and applauded, because THAT is what the scientific mind is all about.  If you don't have that, you only THINK you have a scientific mind.

Even there, not everyone has a scientific mind all the time, or on every topic.


Gabriel

Offline tubesornothing

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #77 on: April 23, 2010, 07:53:09 am »
Right on.   :grin:

Offline simonallaway

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #78 on: April 23, 2010, 08:06:49 am »
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Offline bigdaddy

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #79 on: April 23, 2010, 10:38:03 am »
I was thinking more in terms of drag racing. But yes the engineers have it without doubt but on the track it's the driver who is feeding input for the engineers to make changes unless they have got to the point now that they have senors to do that. I have not followed motorsports for years.

If indeed the car is not handling correctly it's the driver who is the one who says so. The engineers are not going to tell him it's a figment of their imagination. Which is what some people are basically saying here and in other places about coupling caps. It's all in your mind, it is not because I can feel the difference as though a driver can feel it on the track. It's called feedback and I'm not talking about the type that makes an amp squeal. It's the feedback you get from your senses.


Offline tubesornothing

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #80 on: April 23, 2010, 11:08:21 am »
The engineers are not going to tell him it's a figment of their imagination. Which is what some people are basically saying here and in other places about coupling caps.

No one here is saying not to use your ears or your senses.    All people are saying: try using your ears and your senses with a double blind test. 

Offline bigdaddy

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #81 on: April 23, 2010, 05:08:51 pm »
I'm disabled and can hardly do the test let alone make it scientific, shoot I can hardly walk more than a few feet now without having to rest...LOL.... :laugh: :huh:

I really am a scientific person and having had a sound company and done some recording by all I means I truly believe that science wins out in the end. BUT I have worked with Prima Donna vocalists who freakout when the mic does not reproduce their voice as they want to hear it exactly. I tried my hardest to accommodate them because I understood that it was a matter of feel and very unscientific.

You could do all the pink noise, white noise and even computerized EQ of the room and the system and you still get it doesn't sound right and they are correct. Same for recording, you must get the right mic and pre for the persons voice and what you hear might not record the same. In fact most of the time what you hear does not come out the same once recorded so how do you make the vocalist hear themselves like they want to in the headset yet record them with the best possible sound quality? I all too much understand the situation.

And I'll say all the double blind tests and recording doesn't mean anything because of the degradation of the sound itself by the time it goes to the end game and the person in the listening mode. All the nuances will be gone by then. As the signal gets recorded and compressed more and more by whatever device the signal is going through you will lose the pure sound that was made at the speaker or in that room. A wrong mic or too much compression will ruin it all and so that test will be totally unscientific.

It's kind of like the test I read about trying to explain why you cannot test quantum theory's. It has to do with a cat and a box, it's called Schrödinger's cat.

Offline jcm-jmp

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #82 on: April 23, 2010, 05:56:35 pm »
scientist didnt design leo's amps nor any other makers amps! the were audio design engineer's not scientist!
the motivator for thier designs were costs. they selected the cheapest part that could provide it's function within acceptable limits.

so you got the cheapest caps you could get that still maintained a certain set of performance characteristics even in the most holy of all amps!

the electricaly perfect circuit is not always the best sounding circuit. (if this were true tube amps would be scoffed at and trashed) the digital circuitry of today is much closer to the perfect cicuit design yet IMHO sounds like sh--!
the ceramic caps in the old fender PI's, the not quite right primary empeadences of th primarys in the OT's of all old amps, these little not so perfect circuits, plus many more non perfect circuit designs (vaccume tubes themselves!) are what give the tube amp "magic"

it's not "magic" at all!and certainly is not due to solely one type of capacitor!
 its just a ballance of give and take through out the amplifier. when you hear or see the effects of a componant in the circuit you have to decide if it will compliment or degrade the post sections of the design and 9 times out of 10 you find that out through trial and error not
"scientific explainations or complex calc formulla's"
 
you simply replace that part with another cheaper or more expensive one
lol
i know there are some very good EE types here and i respect thier knowledge and thier dedication to helping us on this form,
 but i dont think we have any scientist here! LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



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Offline FYL

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #83 on: April 23, 2010, 05:58:21 pm »
Quote
BUT I have worked with Prima Donna vocalists who freakout when the mic does not reproduce their voice as they want to hear it exactly.

Was their range Capricciosità-puerilità-coloratura?
 :wink: 

Quote
It's kind of like the test I read about trying to explain why you cannot test quantum theory's. It has to do with a cat and a box, it's called Schrödinger's cat.

Schrödinger's paradox is a reductio ad absurdum. I like Everett's decoherent interpretation, multiverse vs. universe, etc.


Offline FYL

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #84 on: April 23, 2010, 06:03:04 pm »
Quote
the electricaly perfect circuit is not always the best sounding circuit.

Of course, but you should fully understand how a circuit works before determining why it sounds good...

Offline tubesornothing

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #85 on: April 23, 2010, 06:34:31 pm »
Big Daddy:

you have missed the whole idea.  Doing a double blind test does not mean you have to record anything.  All it means is that you, nor the tester know what is under test until after the test has been complete.  Perhaps look it up on wikipedia or some other source for a formal definition.

Take your favorite amp.  Remove the cap that you think is going to affect the tone of your amp.  Install a substitution box.  Call little johnny from next door.  Get him to twist the knob.  Go grab your guitar, plug it in.  Have little johnny put the knob to one position.  You play a bunch and write down your feelings.  No looking at the knob!   Have little johnny twist the knob.  Do it a bunch of times - more the better.  Have him put the knob in the same position too - but don't let him tell you that.

(sheesh that reads like kiddy porn)

Once you do this a bunch, look at your results.  It would be interesting to see if you were consistent or not.  Also it'd be interesting to see what caps you seem to prefer.

See, this DOES NOT rule you you playing or feeling anything!  What it does though, is it rules out you thinking "oh man, now I am listening to my $600 paper and oil, super mojo caps - and I can really
feel it baby".  A cheapo ceramic cap has just as much possibility of sounding great as does the audiophile caps.

This also rules out Johnny tainting the results, because he wont smirk at you when he switches on the ceramic cap, or chuckle when you try out the Mallory 150.

So see!  We can have a happy marriage of the two!  You can play, feel and be a scientist too!


Just because you don't want to or can't do the test, does not make the test useful.





robertlatham1:

ahh read your history.  Leo got his designs from RCA and Radiotron.  Believe me, a few scientists and engineers were involved there. 

Again, no one is talking about a "perfect circuit".  All that was said is to try a double blind test.  And yes, you can do this a cap at a time. 

Go on, give it a try, nothing to be scared of.  You might like it.  (if I start to call you johnny, watch out!)









« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 06:39:16 pm by tubesornothing »

Offline FYL

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #86 on: April 23, 2010, 06:40:47 pm »
Quote
This also rules out Johnny tainting the results, because he wont smirk at you when he switches on the ceramic cap, or chuckle when you try out the Mallory 150.

Yes, but the test would still be technically single blind - better than sighted/biased but not as rigorous as double blind.


Offline jcm-jmp

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #87 on: April 23, 2010, 07:13:12 pm »
(if I start to call you johnny, watch out!)

LOL i have been put im much worse catagories lol

I agree with the test and methods!

I just dont think audio amplification is rocket science. complex, yes and i certainly dont understand everything there is to know about,
but rocket science? no it's not.

audio amplification is acctualy one of the first things taught in electronics courses because of it's simplicity.
now I will shut up because I'm still learning the "simple" audio amplifier design LMAO!
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Offline bigdaddy

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #88 on: April 23, 2010, 09:12:25 pm »
Tubesornothing I know what a double blind is and I wasn't just talking about that I was talking about recording it as mentioned by other posters.

I use the same settings on every amp I ever played. If those settings did not work the amp did not work. As SRV said he wishes his amps had one knob and an on/off switch.

That's exactly what I did, I did not really notice what cap was there until I looked down. I was working fast as not to notice. But next time I am going to put tape over it and have someone else number it. So I will not know which cap is being used. But that's why I repeated the test again to make sure I wasn't making things up. I have reached a certain point in my life when I do not lie to myself, I trust myself to be totally natural about anything. In all aspects to my life I have learned to use logic and not emotion to make rational judgments so I do not have any preconceived or prejudicial thoughts. of course this in the past has ruined all my relationships with women... :grin:.

In reality the caps I expected to sound great sounded like crap and the over hyped ones that I expected to sound like everything else sounded great. I was shocked. Those thoughts were NOT preconceived because they did not change the outcome, I was going from what I read from others. It was as though I were 2 people, I have the ability to be totally objective. I did the test with a totally clear and an almost naive outlook. I thought to myself I have no idea which is going to sound better because I never did this before. Like I said I was shocked because the outcome was just not what I expected. I even tried in some amps to use different caps together to achieve a certain value so that I would get the best of both caps. It didn't work that way for some reason.

I wish some other would do this test.

And the first people to design this stuff were scientists. By doing these tests we are being scientists. You do not need a degree from somewhere to be a scientist.

Offline bluesbear

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #89 on: April 24, 2010, 06:51:04 am »
One more time:
Everything that has been said is correct. You're all right!
The point is that one person's "this sounds like crap" is another's "weeping for joy, finally found the perfect sound after all these years". And I can tell you from experience, the same guitarist's "perfect sound" can differ between 2 seperate bands.
Within a truly subjective situation, "different", "better", and "worse" are just words waiting for each individual to decide for him or herself. Which brings me back to the concept of magic. You may argue with the word but to me, anything that is different for each person and yet is still the same should probably be the legal definition of the term "magic".
Dave

Offline G._Hoffman

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2010, 07:38:37 am »
scientist didnt design leo's amps nor any other makers amps!


Well, strictly speaking, the scientists/engineers are RCA designed all of the early Fender amps. 



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Offline bigdaddy

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2010, 01:21:45 pm »
Well what about Marconi and Tesla? :smiley:

Offline jcm-jmp

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2010, 02:35:29 pm »
Well, strictly speaking, the scientists/engineers are RCA designed all of the early Fender amps.

the western electric circuit was basis for allmost all early designs includeing Mr. fenders.
and once again
the western electric designers were engineers not SCIENTIST!

all past and present audio designs are based solely on plagerized concepts of the western electric design!

yes tesla and marconi were scientist with far more depth then just audio amplification.

these guys truely dug into Quantum theories and deeper theorectical mathmatics!

many of tesla scientific studies still baffle the modern day scientist and electrical engineers!

audio was a simple by-product of what he was trying to achieve. Time and space constantance were ,more over, where his major studies were, which are far more complex then simple audio amplification could ever be.


no matter how much you argue the fact, audio electronics egineering is not a scientific matter. it is simple electronics and some of the simplest form of electronics. the electronics involved in micro processing completely dwarfs the complexity of audio design.
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Offline tubesornothing

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2010, 03:11:38 pm »
*sheesh*   :rolleyes:    this is all getting to bit a bit much...

I am going back to working on amps and playing guitar.  I'll do what I do, you'll do what you do.

Offline Jack1962

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2010, 05:52:01 pm »
So I guess the obvious question is , are these good caps for amps or not  :laugh:
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Offline G._Hoffman

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #95 on: April 24, 2010, 11:25:09 pm »
Well, strictly speaking, the scientists/engineers are RCA designed all of the early Fender amps.

the western electric circuit was basis for allmost all early designs includeing Mr. fenders.
and once again
the western electric designers were engineers not SCIENTIST!

all past and present audio designs are based solely on plagerized concepts of the western electric design!

yes tesla and marconi were scientist with far more depth then just audio amplification.

these guys truely dug into Quantum theories and deeper theorectical mathmatics!

many of tesla scientific studies still baffle the modern day scientist and electrical engineers!

audio was a simple by-product of what he was trying to achieve. Time and space constantance were ,more over, where his major studies were, which are far more complex then simple audio amplification could ever be.


no matter how much you argue the fact, audio electronics egineering is not a scientific matter. it is simple electronics and some of the simplest form of electronics. the electronics involved in micro processing completely dwarfs the complexity of audio design.


I don't actually disagree with you, but there is one way to look at it differently.  I heard a scientist say this once, "Doing something the first time is science.  Doing it the second time is engineering.  Doing it the third time is manufacturing."  I'm not sure that's quite right, but I like the quote!


Gabriel

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #96 on: April 24, 2010, 11:48:57 pm »
As a former engineering student, engineering is probably best defined as the practical application of science and mathematics. Or, said another way, utitlizing science and mathematics to solve a problem.

Offline Jack1962

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #97 on: April 25, 2010, 09:06:00 am »
Well, strictly speaking, the scientists/engineers are RCA designed all of the early Fender amps.

I don't actually disagree with you, but there is one way to look at it differently.  I heard a scientist say this once, "Doing something the first time is science.  Doing it the second time is engineering.  Doing it the third time is manufacturing."  I'm not sure that's quite right, but I like the quote!


Gabriel

Great quote and very true  :grin:
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Offline jcm-jmp

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #98 on: April 25, 2010, 11:04:29 am »
I heard a scientist say this once, "Doing something the first time is science.  Doing it the second time is engineering.  Doing it the third time is manufacturing."  I'm not sure that's quite right, but I like the quote

great quote! i agree with that statement 100%
 
Im not trying to downplay anyone here. you guys are all great!

PRR and HBP, with a few others, are some of the most educated individuals i have met through these forums and I totaly respect all you guy's knowledge and expierence. I didnt mean to hi-jack the thread, but I just found it a little odd to be acting as if audio amplificaftion and blind capacitor test was something of rocket science in nature.

I appolgize and will keep my opinions in such matters off of the boards.

respectfully
Robert
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Offline zendragon63

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Re: SoZo electrolytics
« Reply #99 on: April 25, 2010, 02:23:16 pm »
Great post (ain't it fun how far into the barrow pit we fall from 'Sozo Electrolytics'  :grin: ).

The creation of sound is pretty self expressive, personal. I am certainly wrong at least as often as I am right so how about this: If the older Fenders built with cheep cheep parts sound so good, why even bother with expensive high end caps. expensive OTs, etc?  I guess it is because we can and the technology is available to either apply or ignore. My sound should be different than your sound. Double blind or not--and I can appreciate the effort to rid ourselves of self-deceit--if you can hear and feel the difference in coupling cap types or in PS electrolytics, what does it really matter?

Absoluetely no offense intended to anyone. Whether the 'world is flat'...or not...and it gives you the voice you seek, seems to me that at the end of the day, that is all that matters. We are fortunate to have options. Regards

dennis
Knowledge is what you get when you read the fine print; experience is what get when you don't. I am, therefore, experienced.

 


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