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Offline Blackdog

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(Re)intro and question about Fender PIs
« on: June 02, 2010, 07:36:35 am »
Hello there,

4 years ago I was an active member here and built an amp from scratch that is still today my main amp. It has a DeluxeReverb style output section (12AT7 PI and 6V6s). That was my first and only build so far.

I wanted to have a somewhat bigger amp with more clean headroom, but since those times I moved into building electric guitars, so I decided to go with a clone instead of a scratch build this time.

So I'm now building a BF Vibroverb clone. Since this one will likely fulfill all my Blackface needs I was thinking about "Browning" my previous build a little.

Now the questions:

Fender settled for the 12AT7 PI starting with the BF amps, but before they used the 12AX7 version of the Bassman, which incidentally is the same one used in most of the classic Marshalls.

In terms of sound, what are the main differences I can expect between the two designs, in headroom, asymmetric clipping, compression, etc ??

I'm talking about the AB763 (12AT7, Rk=470, Rtail=22K, NFB=820/47) vs the 5F6A (12AX7, Rk=470, Rtail=10K, NFB=27K/5K).

From the schematics I see that the 5F6A version has a higher plate to cathode voltage than the AB763 version. However I have the understanding that the clean headroom of the Blackfaces is higher. What gives ??

Thanks a lot for your help.

Offline tommytornado

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Re: (Re)intro and question about Fender PIs
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2010, 08:09:59 am »
I'm not sure what the answer(s) are to your PI questions..  I just wanted to add, if you want to brown the tone of your amp, why not just convert the tone stack to the shunted treble pot style used in brown era Fenders?  (i.e.  6G11 Vibrolux/6G16 Vibroverb)  That'll brown up your tone and should be a very easy conversion.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: (Re)intro and question about Fender PIs
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2010, 08:24:30 am »
Fender settled for the 12AT7 PI starting with the BF amps, but before they used the 12AX7 version of the Bassman, which incidentally is the same one used in most of the classic Marshalls.

In terms of sound, what are the main differences I can expect between the two designs, in headroom, asymmetric clipping, compression, etc ??


I would look to the output stage and/or preamp and/or power supply instead of the phase inverter.

If you want less "headroom" that probably really translates to wanting distortion at lower volume. You will be very well served to get to that goal by using either a preamp with a master volume and a clean output stage, or a smaller-power output stage that will run out of steam sooner. You could do the latter by a redesign, or by installing VVR, Powerscaling or the like to reduce the output power of the amp.

Either of these approches will work better than monkeying the phase inverter. In any well-designed amp, the phase inverter doesn't compress, distort, etc, but simply delivers enough output to drive the output tubes to full maximum power (and possibly beyond) with a reasonable input signal and with reasonably low distortion.

Offline tubeswell

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Re: (Re)intro and question about Fender PIs
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2010, 02:47:48 pm »
my main amp... has a DeluxeReverb style output section (12AT7 PI and 6V6s).

...

From the schematics I see that the 5F6A version has a higher plate to cathode voltage than the AB763 version. However I have the understanding that the clean headroom of the Blackfaces is higher. What gives ??

Not all BF amps are created equal. Not all tweed amps are either. For starters, the BFDR has 2 x 6V6s and the 5F6A has 2 x 6L6/5881 and the latter requires a bigger signal from the PI to get the grid to clip.

You'll get more clipping with a 12AX7 in your DR type amp, but you may or may not like it. However as its quick'n'dirty, why not try it and see?
A bus stops at a bus station. A train stops at a train station. On my desk, I have a work station.

Offline dwp

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Re: (Re)intro and question about Fender PIs
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2010, 11:08:26 pm »
I can maybe save you a trip if you don't need all the why's and where-fors.....build the 5f6A. It has absolutely great clean tone, loud out of the box. you can go 12AY7 in V-1 for the ultimate headroom, depending on your power and speakers. The cathode follower tone stack is easy to shape your tone by changing values, and presence pot on the NFB allows more depth, versatile. I just converted my 4X10 blackface build to 5F6A, after trying many conversions, I either came up over the top, or too clean, sterile. (say the kids, sterile)
The 5F6A gets raive reviews on my block, is loud, is easy to build, easy to mod, etc. build it,you will see.

forgot to add, you can tie the two inputs together, have one set of jacks with independent or blended high-low volume pot control, add a master volume pot easily, same control front works well, keep reverb, use two vibrato slots, etc......
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 12:07:53 am by dwp »

Offline Blackdog

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Re: (Re)intro and question about Fender PIs
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2010, 03:53:13 am »
Thanks for the replies,

If you want to brown the tone of your amp, why not just convert the tone stack to the shunted treble pot style used in brown era Fenders?  (i.e.  6G11 Vibrolux/6G16 Vibroverb)  That'll brown up your tone and should be a very easy conversion.
Excellent point. Funny you should mention that because the only mod I plan to do on the BFVV I'm building is reverb on both channels (just like Chip suggests on the other thread), and converting the "normal" channel to 6G16 specs. I ordered and extra tapped pot so I could do the same to the other build.

I would look to the output stage and/or preamp and/or power supply instead of the phase inverter.

Either of these approches will work better than monkeying the phase inverter. In any well-designed amp, the phase inverter doesn't compress, distort, etc, but simply delivers enough output to drive the output tubes to full maximum power (and possibly beyond) with a reasonable input signal and with reasonably low distortion.
I get your point. It is not that I intend to monkey with anything (the 12AX7 based PI seems to be as good a design as the 12AT7 one considering it is in use in so many amps). I guess I was trying to find out if there is any specific "sonic signature" attributable to one design or the other.

I am not really looking for early distortion or anything like that. I'm after a different dynamics/responsiveness, if that makes any sense.

The build has two independent channels feeding the DR style output stage: one is the basic BF style preamp and the other is a jumpered JTM45 (or 5F6A) style preamp with a simple master volume. With the rather tight response of the DR output stage the whole is more BF Fender than Marshall. I was thinking about pushing it a bit more towards Marshall-land.

Not all BF amps are created equal. Not all tweed amps are either. For starters, the BFDR has 2 x 6V6s and the 5F6A has 2 x 6L6/5881 and the latter requires a bigger signal from the PI to get the grid to clip.

You'll get more clipping with a 12AX7 in your DR type amp, but you may or may not like it. However as its quick'n'dirty, why not try it and see?
Very valid point that I obviously missed. True, it's simple enough to try. I was trying to find out more before cracking the amp open.

Right now I'm still busy with the BFVV build...
I can maybe save you a trip if you don't need all the why's and where-fors.....build the 5f6A.

The 5F6A gets raive reviews on my block, is loud, is easy to build, easy to mod, etc. build it,you will see.
Well, that would be a major redesign, I don't want to change the amp that much. But you're right, a 5F6A is probably next in my "must have amps" short list.

Offline topbrent

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Re: (Re)intro and question about Fender PIs
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2010, 05:25:29 am »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: (Re)intro and question about Fender PIs
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2010, 12:12:48 pm »
With the rather tight response of the DR output stage the whole is more BF Fender than Marshall. I was thinking about pushing it a bit more towards Marshall-land.

Have you played a non-master Marshall?

Between the sealed cabinet and more feedback (and usually solid-state rectifier), the Marshall is the tighter-sounding of the 2 amp styles. The differences are more about speakers and output tubes, and that's not obvious until you push the amp enough for the output tubes to distort. At least, that was my experience with the '73 50w Marshall I used to own. It was a beautiful distorted sound, but when playing clean I could fake Fender easily enough by playing through both the Brilliant and Normal channels and balancing the volumes as a secondary EQ.

Maybe I'm the wrong person to offer a direction, other than to say experiemtn with anything and everything that catches your fancy until you hear a sound you really like. I've owned so many vintage amps that my overall impression was that they all sounded very much alike when played clean, and they tended to show their differences when distorted. Sure, an AC-30 sounds different clean than a VibroChamp, and each has a "signature sound" but I stopped owning vintage amps when I started realizing that they just didn't sound as different as I'd expected, at the volumes I was playing at most often.

I guess I need to make something like PRR's 1/3w amp, and maybe a 3w amp for when I want to be really loud:laugh:

Offline bluesbear

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Re: (Re)intro and question about Fender PIs
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2010, 02:47:31 am »
It's 3:30am and I've got a headache but I'll try to make sense.
I've played a LOT of amps over the years (I'm 60). It took a lot of time before I realized my favorite cranked sound came from amps generally associated with clean. Twins, Super Reverbs, even 5F6a's. The trick is to make an amp like that at 10 - 15 watts so it won't be lethal turned up to 9. My answer is a BF non-trem Deluxe. I changed to power section to cathode bias and raised the voltage to the PI and preamp to SF specs for much more clean headroom. Now it's a 15 watt Twin that doesn't get a lot of dirt till 8 or 9... but it's a sweet OD that won't break every window in 3 blocks (or alienate bartenders). In other words, playing with the voltage to the PI and preamp can make a huge difference to the tone and clean/dirty ratio in an amp.
Dave

Offline topbrent

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Re: (Re)intro and question about Fender PIs
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2010, 04:49:57 am »
... I realized my favorite cranked sound came from amps generally associated with clean....
- My answer is a BF non-trem Deluxe.
- I changed to power section to cathode bias and raised the voltage to the PI and preamp to SF specs for much more clean headroom.
- Now it's a 15 watt Twin that doesn't get a lot of dirt till 8 or 9...
Dave
(emphasis added)

Dave, thanks for your info.
Just curious what pre and PI voltages you are running as measured in your amp. 
-  BF and SF schematics show voltages for the Pre and PI  in the Deluxe at about 170-180'ish volts.

Power section plate/screen voltages?

Are your amps running the traditional fender reverb or are they simple "lite" versions?

Are you running any NFB?


Offline Blackdog

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Re: (Re)intro and question about Fender PIs
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2010, 04:43:25 am »
Thanks for all the good advice guys,
Right now I'm getting close to finishing the BFVV build, then I'll see how to tweak my other amp to make it interestingly different... I think I'll try the 12AX7 PI to see what it sounds like, and possibly switch to cathode bias and less NFB to loosen up the output stage a bit.

@bluesbear: Interesting comment about the BF non-trem Deluxe, Dave. I saw the basic schematic you proposed in the AB763 thread without the third preamp stage, and other than the PI (long-tail vs. cathodine) it is pretty much the non-reverb BF Princeton, isn't it ?? I have one of those (a 64), my only vintage amp... 

Offline azzaaa

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Re: (Re)intro and question about Fender PIs
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2010, 03:23:36 am »
I know i'm a bit late on this one but i see a fair difference in the two valves. 12at vs 12ax7. The 12at can handle more current through it (even though fender did not utilize this). And it also has a much lower internal resistance so to access the linear part of the grid curves a lower plate load resistor can be advantages. Fender was on to something with the silverface values 47k. I'm currently using 20k witch is approx twice internal resistance(see aitken). I also lowered the bias resistor to 250ohm. These changes really cleaned the power section up. And in my opinion the 12at has a slightly different top end maybe a little glassier as well as less gain.

Offline PRR

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Re: (Re)intro and question about Fender PIs
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2010, 11:43:16 pm »
> I know i'm a bit late on this one but i see a fair difference in the two valves. 12at vs 12ax7. The 12at can handle more current through it (even though fender did not utilize this)

Correct all around. The end result is as much about the resistors as the tube. Fender thought he did not need 12AX7 gain (things changed), the 12AT7 with high value resistors gives a hair less gain with a hair better drive and (speculating) may have been a dime cheaper. Later styles wanted more gain, and production sanity suggests fewer tube-types in stock (and 12AT7 never had the popularity that 12AX7 finally had, cost tended to be higher). With similar resistor values, the difference is probably slight.

Now when you get to 20K, the 12AX7 will suck, the 12AT7 will puff harder and pull it. Maximum driver output may be much higher than any power-tube needs (i.e. the driver is not straining to slam the outputs). You also have 2X to 4X the supply current to filter, though this may or may not impact B+ filtering costs enough to notice. The 20K plate resistors generally will need to be way over 1/2 Watt, 2 Watt if you offer long warranty (or will maintain it yourself forever). The extra pennies are nothing in DIY, but can't be spared in mass production.

Offline azzaaa

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Re: (Re)intro and question about Fender PIs
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2010, 06:05:27 am »
Thanks PRR. I am using 2 x 10k/2w resistors for each side of the 12at7 and yeah mass production wouldn't allow such a setup but the fun and experimentation certaintly make it worthwhile. Also I was  having trouble understanding the role of current in the phase inverter as opposed to voltage. The power amps role as i understand it is to increase current to in effect drive the speaker but the phase inverters role appears to be to obviously to invert but how does the amount of current the pi tube is pulling effect its role in the power amp. Does it allow it to hit the grids of the power tubes with plenty in reserve or is it just the fact that I've moved the bias point that i've noticed such a change in porformance. Does the amount of current the power tubes are pulling then have an effect as i'm biasing the 6l6s at around 50ma/21watts. thanks azz

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: (Re)intro and question about Fender PIs
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2010, 08:16:03 am »
The power amps role as i understand it is to increase current to in effect drive the speaker ...

The power amplifier stage does what the name says: amplifies power.

You don't think of output tubes as having voltage gain, but they do. It's just often around 10, plus or minus. With a 6L6, you apply maybe 30 volts or more of grid input signal, and have 300v or so of output voltage swing on the plate.

But there's also a current swing. In an ideal transformer, power in = power out, so the input power (plate voltage swing * plate current swing) equals the output power on the secondary. The transformer also allows transformation of impedance (and at the same time, of voltage and current), so while you have large voltage variation with small current variation and high impedance on the primary, you get low voltage variation with high current variation and low impedance on the secondary.

... the phase inverters role appears to be to obviously to invert but how does the amount of current the pi tube is pulling effect its role in the power amp. Does it allow it to hit the grids of the power tubes with plenty in reserve ...

In a typical guitar amp, there is no current drawn by the output tube grids unless you drive the grid until the instantaneous voltage is more than 0v. When you do that, you already have all the clean output power, some distortion, and are on your way to severe distortion.

The primary job of the phase inverter is to provide 2 output signals of opposite polarity to drive a push-pull output stage. It may also have voltage gain in addition to its primary job. That the tube used could also deliver some amount of current along with its output voltage is a feature not utilized in a typical phase inverter. The place that feature is used is the driver for a push-pull class AB2 or class B2 output stage. These often use an output tube as the driver (6V6, 6L6, EL34 are common) and a transformer to couple the driver to the output stage grids. These particular classes of operation assume current is delivered to the output stage grids along with the voltage, and current * voltage is power.

The confusion is that we start with a complete circuit, and then try to learn how it works, rather than the old textbook way of learning basics and then figuring out how to make a circuit. If you read old textbooks from the 40's and 50's, the typical triode to use as an example of a voltage amplifier is a 6J5 or similar (something not unlike a 12AU7, with a mu of 20 or less). This tube has what would have been considered a medium mu, moderately high transconductance and moderate-low internal plate resistance.

The fact of low internal resistance means that if you apply a voltage across the plate and cathode, more current flows than if the plate resistance weer higher. The material used to make the plate (and its size, etc) means it can handle a certain amount of power (again, voltage * current) without overheating.

So mu is low by modern standards, internal resistance is low, and given the power rating the tube could handle a fair amount of current flow. It was found that voltage amplification could only approach the value of mu, and that it takes increasingly higher load resistance to get there. But in order to increase load resistance without other results that wreck voltage gain, you have to keep raising the power supply voltage. Ultimately, it was found that a load resistance much greater than 4-5 times rp (internal plate resistance) results in very little additional gain.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 02:38:00 am by HotBluePlates »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: (Re)intro and question about Fender PIs
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2010, 08:16:41 am »
Jump forward to the introduction of the 12AX7. Internal plate resistance of this tube might be 5-8 times that of the 6J5 or 12AU7, and mu is 5 times as much. The transconductance (how much plate current change happens with a grid voltage change) is much less. In the end, it is a tube with limited current capability, but much higher voltage gain capability.

When we look back at tubes like the 12AU7 or 12AT7 from the basis of 12AX7 understanding, we see a lot of current capability. But in our situation, there's nothing that takes advatage of that (except maybe the reverb driver circuit using parallel 12AT7 sections). The only real benefit of the 'AT7 or 'AU7 might be low output impedance due to low internal resistance, but we also don't often have a need for that, except in uncommon situations with multiple output tube pair that need a low source impedance.

The changes you are hearing with a tube operating at a higher current level might be due to increased transconductance (Gm goes up as tube current goes up), or perhaps an operating point that doesn't strangle down the tube so much. From a design/economy standpoint, the same job could probably be done by a different tube that didn't pull as much current from the power supply.

That doesn't really matter though, as long as you like the sound. And old 12AU7's are often much cheaper than old 12AX7's. I know I have somewhere around 100-150 12AU7's, and I might as well design something to make use of them since nobody is really looking to buy them. They're not a hot guitar-amp commodity.

Offline azzaaa

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Re: (Re)intro and question about Fender PIs
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2010, 09:14:31 pm »
Thanks hot blue thats given me plenty to consider and it's certainly got me thinking about how each stage effects the stage after it. Understanding fundamentals on how each tube operates is relatively simple such as picking a bias point and determining cathode resistor size/ wattage rating etc but working out how each stage is driving the grid of the following stage is an area i'm still struggling with. Is this something that is best done mathematically or with a scope or with some type of listening device?

Offline PRR

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Re: (Re)intro and question about Fender PIs
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2010, 10:35:59 pm »
The 6L6 grids must be swung to some large voltage and have some resistance hanging on the grids.

Say 50V peak and 100K resistor.

50V/100K is 0.5mA.

If the driver flows less than 0.5mA it can't make the 0.5mA swing. It actually has to flow somewhat more than 0.5mA, like 1mA or 2mA.

Even then, it "works hard" on peaks like an average table-saw groaning through a knot.

Your 5mA or 10mA flow is working light, like a table-saw driven by a large lawn-tractor engine.

 


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