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Offline tubenit

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Capacitor foil orientation
« on: April 09, 2011, 06:35:14 am »
Saw this on another website regarding a non polarized capacitor and orienting it "properly".

What do you guys think about this?  think it would actually make for a quieter or better sounding amp?



With respect, Tubenit

Offline Jack1962

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2011, 06:53:36 am »
on his o-scope the ac interference (noise) was reduced when the outer foil was attached to the ground probe , how would you place the cap in your amp circuit (would the outer foil be towards the output of the prevoius stage or the input of the next stage) ?


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Offline triode

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2011, 07:08:46 am »
You typically want the outside foil placed closest to ground. In between stages that would actually be towards the power supply, since the AC ground is much closer there (through the plate resistor (say 100k) then through the power supply cap (nearly a dead short to AC above the cutoff frequency)). Looking the other way you typically have a 1M resistor to ground (grid input) which is much higher than the plate resistor.

Interestingly enough, I told a guitar maker this once, who was using paper in oil caps, and he swears he heard a huge difference when swapping them around in the tone stack of a guitar. I didn't really pay too much attention to that until I went to his shop and we hooked up some some switches to swap its orientation quickly while playing. I must say, I was a bit shocked at the outcome. YMMV on that one, he had some nice pickups/pots and these were Jensen PIO caps.

Just my $0.02.

Offline VMS

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2011, 08:19:28 am »
Aiken has some more info on his site:

http://www.aikenamps.com/OutsideFoil.htm


Offline mresistor

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2011, 04:47:55 pm »
all you need is a cable with a 1/4 connector on one end and the other end with alligator clips. Clip on to any cap with the leads, plug into your amp. Reverse the leads on the cap and whichever one was less noisy would indicate the proper orientation of the cap.


Offline jojokeo

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2011, 11:13:26 pm »
Can someone that's already done this testing please confirm thier results for us on the most common bypass & coupling caps?
I'm wondering if all Mallory 150s has the outer foil always on the right side when reading it? Same thing for the orange drops? Or is there an inconsistency when the caps are labeled?

« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 07:35:59 am by tubenit »
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Offline tubenit

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2011, 10:38:42 am »
OK, I had a chance to try this out to see if actually worked and it does!  I just plugged in and used the "clean" channel to hear the noise difference.

The Orange Drop side connected to ground that was the quietest, I marked with a black line on the cap.

You could hear a signficant difference in which side was noisiest and quietest. Easy to distinguish.

So I am understanding that the outer foil to ground was the quietest.

Quote
The banded end (outer foil) of the cap should always go to the lower impedance side of the circuit. If it is a coupling cap coming off the plate of a tube then the banded end goes towards the plate (band is at + potential). If it is a cathode bypass cap the band goes to ground (band is at - potential). If is a PI input cap the band goes away from the grid of the PI tube (band is at - potential).


Haven't tried it with caps in an amp yet, but I will.

With respect, Tubenit
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 07:59:26 am by tubenit »

Offline tubenit

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2011, 12:02:02 pm »
Ok, I tried this without tubes in an amp hooking up to the caps on a layout board.

I am NOT convinced this really worked??  But yes, I could hear a side that was quieter. No question about that.

However, I do NOT think this works with the caps already on a board and in the amp hooked up. That's my opinion.

With respect, Tubenit


« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 07:39:16 am by tubenit »

Offline Willabe

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2011, 01:56:54 pm »
Yeah it's in one of GW's books. I've read a few times that what makes a differance in the noise added or taken away is not so much dependent on the outside foil going to the low impedence side of the schem, but rather that all the caps are oriented the same way. Like in a PI, both coupling caps going the same way, not one caps outside foil looking to the plate and the other coupling caps outside foil looking away from the plate. Don't remember who said it and I have not tried playing around with it but the author said this does make a differance in noise heard in the amp.


            Brad          :icon_biggrin: 

Offline tubenit

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2011, 07:05:03 am »
Quote
tubenit - have you checked a given number of these to see if they are consistently marked on the same side yet? If you're looking at the part number ID marking is the side on the right the outer foil side and is it this way on every cap you check? (trying to get a response on this specifically) thx


OK, I did this for another amp layout board. And there is no specific pattern to the markings on the Sprauge Orange Drop PS caps. In other words, the foil pointed the "correct" direction may have the lettering on the left or right side (so to speak).

I attached an example of foil oriention on a D-style amp.

Here is an example of cap foil orientation in a Marshall type amp: 
http://ampgarage.com/forum/files/50w_plexi_layout_431.pdf

With respect, Tubenit
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 08:03:08 am by tubenit »

Offline Tone Junkie

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2011, 10:56:42 am »
I just finished my tester last week all the differant caps I have tested, exept the sozo,s where marked with no discrimination as to lettering in other words the lettering direction meant nothing.

In all the sozo,s Ive tested so far about 20 the outer foil was with the line every time.

I tested orange drops, mallory's, vishay sprauge, and sozo,s.

In other words, the Mallory's and the Orange Drops do NOT have lettering that is consistent with the outer foil. 

Thanks Bill
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 07:44:42 am by tubenit »

Offline tubenit

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2011, 11:44:34 am »
A tip on testing them.  You have to hold the cap between two fingers when listening to noise. The large caps are harder to hear the difference.  The .0047 - .047 range are easier to hear.

When I had a hard time discerning. I'd sort of open and close my fingers as though I was tapping my fingers shut back and forth. That allowed me an easier way to tell on the larger caps.

I think the ideal cheapo tester would be a piece of wood with two alligator clips mounted on the wood. Then use alligator clipped wires to connect to that.  Insert cap. Touch with fingers and then change directions of the cap.

With respect, Tubenit

Offline overtone

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2011, 02:10:24 pm »
... Is testing procedure best using a tube amp for this? ...
I have used both, not sure that tube or SS would make any difference. Some caps just don't have much difference either way and with others you have to turn the amp up really loud to hear anything. If I recall correctly, the old "mustard" caps can behave in both of these ways.
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Offline tubenit

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2012, 07:53:16 am »
Some summary points to make:

1)  The lettering on caps like Orange Drop or Mallory's does NOT indicate the outer foil orientation.

2)   Look at the picture attached and hook up the alligator clipped wires, caps and guitar cord as shown. By placing your thumb and
      finger on the body or the cap, you will be able to tell which orientation is quietest towards ground.  Use the clean channel on your
      amp so you do not have extra "noise" from a higher gain channel.

3)   The side that is quietest towards ground is the outer foil.  Mark that side.

4)   In the amp, install the cap's outer foil towards the "plate" of the tube,  UNLESS ............. the cap is connected to ground. In which
      case, the outer foil should go to ground.   So coupling caps off the plate will have the outer foil to the plate.  And cathode caps
      going to ground will have the outer foil to ground.

This should help your amp be quieter.  I have done this on my amps and it does seem to make for a very quiet amp.

With respect,  Tubenit


Offline jojokeo

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2012, 10:15:18 am »
Thanks for the update. The Dumble layout looks muy bueno! Is that yours?
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Offline tubenit

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2012, 11:36:55 am »
Quote
Is that yours?
 

No, it isn't.  None of my builds are very neat. BUT ........ they're quiet and sound good.

Tubenit

Offline jojokeo

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2012, 01:00:08 pm »
 Those are the most important attributes anyway. Not too many people know how the insides look or would even care as long as they had a great amp. Kind of a shame when things are so good and we rarely see the insides of our own amps for long periods, except if pictures were taken.

So I'd like to ask you your take on this capacitor thing. Do you feel and/or hear that there may be actual tangible benefits to their installation orientations such as the being a little quiter or absense of oscillations or anything else???
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Offline tubenit

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2012, 05:32:46 pm »
Quote
Do you feel and/or hear that there may be actual tangible benefits to their installation orientations such as the being a little quiter or absense of oscillations or anything else???

Yes, I do think so.  Never had an A/B test though, so it's just my impression.

Tubenit

Offline Geezer

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2012, 08:14:46 pm »

So I'd like to ask you your take on this capacitor thing. Do you feel and/or hear that there may be actual tangible benefits to their installation orientations such as the being a little quiter or absense of oscillations or anything else???

Think of it as a Faraday shield (which is exactly what the foil is). It is only connected on one end, just like the shield on a shielded cable running inside an amp should be. The cable is quietest when the shield is connected to ground. Same principle applies on the capacitor foil shield....connect it to the closest thing to ground to get the full(est) Faraday effect.

When I hold the caps between my fingers & touch the ends to the cable to test them, I can clearly hear a difference in noise reduction. Depending on the ambient noise in the room & the size of the cap (larger values are more subtle) it may take me several turns of the cap to determine the foil end, but I always end up hearing a distinct difference.

BTW, I keep a Champ beside my bench with a guitar cord plugged in. I simply turn the amp on, pick up the guitar cord plug in my right hand, hold the cap in my left hand & touch the cap leads to the plug (one lead to the tip & the other lead to the sleeve). I flip the cap over/reverse the leads & listen for the difference in noise reduction. When I find the quietest orientation, I mark the end of the cap that has the lead on the sleeve of the plug as the foil end....quick, easy & no clips or harnesses or jigs needed.

$0.02

Geezer
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 06:05:39 am by Geezer »
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2012, 12:34:02 pm »
I'm wondering if having a tube amp (Champ) is better for this since a little white noise is there in the first place to help to hear the slight differences? About a year ago I tried it w/ a small SS bass amp I use for signal testing once in a while and it was hard to hear anything IIRC so I sort of dismissed it?

When I get a chance I'm going to go through an amp r&r'ing each cap. Shouldn't take more than an hour or so? The only ones you don't/can't test are ceramic disc, silver mica, and polystyrene is this correct? You didn't do this on your pedals also did you? (seems not applicaple due to the low voltages).
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Offline sluckey

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2012, 01:14:27 pm »
Quote
About a year ago I tried it w/ a small SS bass amp I use for signal testing once in a while and it was hard to hear anything IIRC so I sort of dismissed it?
I think having a high impedance input (like on a tube amp) is very helpful in this check.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline jojokeo

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2012, 10:48:40 am »
I tested a few caps last night using a tube amp which definitely seems needed for this. I still had a bit of a hard time hearing differences and knowing "what to hear". I think it takes some getting use to as the noise varies with how you hold the capacitor, how hard you hold it, and the connectivity to touching the jack plug. I found it easier, for me, to use test leads because of this. It would be easy to get wrong and guess on certain ones.

However, I did find something interesting and I wonder if others noticed this: if you tapped on them with your finger you could definitely hear more microphonic sensitivity one way vs the other. Like the sensitivity the bridge area has using an acoustic equipped instrument with an under bridge transducer pickup. I only tested 3 of each - orange drops, mallory, & nte/xicon and the tapping definitely made the most difference on the Mallory caps. This is most interesting because it seems logical to think that these types are the most sensitive of any of the caps we use! If they are installed incorrectly, these will be the most prone to all of the negative effects.

Now this effect could be enhanced or compounded by the situations they're most used in which is high gain Marshall-type amps or similar circuits where they would then be subjeted to the most "abuse". Meaning cascaded stages, switching & routing of signal paths, highest gain & voltages, highest vibrations,etc. where they actually would contribute toward microphonic issues, parasitics, & oscillations.
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Offline kagliostro

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2012, 02:05:53 am »
One other video about Foil Orientation test

this show that you didn't really need special hardware to do the test

How to find outer foil of capacitor?

K
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Offline Willabe

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2012, 11:02:13 am »
I built the little test box like in the u-tube vid that Tubenit posted to start this thread.

I have only tested the Mallory 150 caps (with a BF PR) so far but my results where opposite to what Geezer said he found/heard.     :dontknow:
 
I found that the smaller the value of the cap, the harder it was to hear a difference.  

The .0047 tone cap used in a 5E3 build was very hard to tell if there was even a slight difference.

The bigger value caps were much easier to hear and mark.


              Brad       :think1:
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 11:10:00 am by Willabe »

Offline Geezer

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2012, 12:34:42 pm »
Quote
my results where opposite to what Geezer said he found/heard

Maybe it depends on which frequencies each of us have killed off in our hearing!  :icon_biggrin:

My 4k is pretty shot....takes a pretty big dB boost on the audiometer for me to hear it.

G
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 02:02:23 pm by Geezer »
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Offline Willabe

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2012, 03:41:46 pm »
Maybe it depends on which frequencies each of us have killed of in our hearing!  :icon_biggrin:

Maybe, I havn't had a hearing test since I was in grade school.       :w2:


            Brad      :laugh:

Offline smackoj

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2013, 12:30:29 pm »
< having a high impedence input like on a tube amp will help>  SL

that is the way to go, tube amp. i tried a quiet SS amp and couldn't hear a dangnagit thing. switched over to a 5E3 build and wala! hear them without a problem.

 :worthy1:

Offline jojokeo

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2013, 02:59:46 pm »
that is the way to go, tube amp. i tried a quiet SS amp and couldn't hear a dangnagit thing. switched over to a 5E3 build and wala! hear them without a problem.
Same happened for me. I wrote myself a reminder on my little tester. I like the idea of helping to hear with the pedal, I forgot about that. BTW, did anyone notice he marked the noisy (beginning/inside) side of the cap?!?
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Offline Geezer

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2013, 06:13:38 am »
Quote from: jojokeo
did anyone notice he marked the noisy (beginning/inside) side of the cap?!?

Ha, I just watched this and saw the same thing.....I always mark the foil end (where the shield is connected)

G
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Offline David John Thomas

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2013, 05:13:12 pm »
A tip for their test . You need to hold the cap between two fingers when you hear noise . The large caps are more difficult to hear the difference. To.0047 - .047 range is easier to hear .

When I had a hard time discerning. I will be kind to open and close my fingers as if I was touching my fingers back and forth close. Allowed me an easier way to tell for larger ceilings.

I think the controller cheapo ideal would be a piece of wood with two alligator clips mounted on wood. Then use alligator clipped wires to connect to it. Place the lid. Touching with fingers and then change the direction of the CAP.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2013, 10:44:12 pm »
... BTW, did anyone notice he marked the noisy (beginning/inside) side of the cap?!?

You mean in the video at the top of this thread? I had to watch both videos and let it sink in a second.

He's absolutely correct. If the outer foil is connected to ground, it acts like a shield. So when he had the cap oriented to the side which made the most hum, that told you the outer foil was not connected to ground (it was connected to the hot of the cable going to the amp). So he marked that side.

When he put the cap on the o'scope, the direction that showed the least 50Hz hum was the marked side connected to the ground clip of the probe (again matching his results from the first test).

The two methods have backwards results because the way he was phrasing it during the video was backwards. They actually show the same thing: when outer foil is connected to the hot, it couples in more noise.

Offline jojokeo

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2013, 11:10:22 pm »
On the first video Gabbi (good name for him as talks too much making it way more confusing than need be, lol) marked the OUTSIDE foil for quietest operation. This is what tubenit, geezer, myself, etc. are all saying as you are - to mark the outside foil. He confirmed it w/ the scope as the marked outside foil which was connected to his ground clip was quietest.

On the second video - the guy marked the noisy side of the cap, not the outside foil. This was what I was referring to and it helps make this more confusing than it is.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 11:13:47 pm by jojokeo »
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Offline Geezer

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2013, 06:29:46 am »
On the first video Gabbi (good name for him as talks too much making it way more confusing than need be, lol) marked the OUTSIDE foil for quietest operation. This is what tubenit, geezer, myself, etc. are all saying as you are - to mark the outside foil. He confirmed it w/ the scope as the marked outside foil which was connected to his ground clip was quietest.

On the second video - the guy marked the noisy side of the cap, not the outside foil. This was what I was referring to and it helps make this more confusing than it is.

Yes....the 2nd video was the one I was commenting on
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2013, 08:34:50 pm »
Watch them again. They both mark the outer foil.


EDITED:
1st video 1st demo: noisy orientation -> side to amp's jack tip = outer foil
1st video 2nd demo: quiet orientation -> ground connection = outer foil

2nd video: noisy orientation -> side to amp's jack tip = outer foil

Your man "Gabbi" talked so much it made a simple demo hard to follow, especially when he had 2 different reasons for figuring out which lead is connected to the outer foil.

But I had to watch both videos twice back to back to be sure.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 02:03:57 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline jojokeo

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2013, 09:28:46 pm »
2nd video: noisy orientation -> side to amp hot = outer foil
*Better to say the amp's jack tip. I first interpreted what you said as the cap's lead side facing towards the amp at first, lol. Just one more confusion to get incorrect, lol.

Brian - I am putting down the whiskey, crack pipe, soda straw, & whatever else influential I swear!!! Talk about confusing!!!!!!!!!!

In the end, you are correct my friend. If he left the cap in it's quietest operation and simply marked the f*ing ground side it would've made a lot more sense. BUT he flips the outer foil side back to the tip side to show the buzz -again- and marks it on that side. It's just a total brain F&%K doing it that way!!!

Talk about two extremes, first video lots of talking and you can't see which end is tip or ground vs 2nd video that's short, no talking, & jack plainly visible but sort of "tricks" you. This is like Myth Busters - we can finally put this one to bed!  :laugh:
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 09:40:39 pm by jojokeo »
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2013, 02:03:02 pm »
Brian - I am putting down the whiskey, crack pipe, soda straw, & whatever else influential I swear!!! Talk about confusing!!!!!!!!!!

I'm with you! The first video especially had me confused, like I was watching a shell-game. So it's nothing on you, just a poor presentation.

2nd video: noisy orientation -> side to amp hot = outer foil
*Better to say the amp's jack tip.

Absolutely right, and changed in the edited version of my post.

Now I wonder how many noisy caps I've got in my amps??  :icon_biggrin:

Offline Gainzilla

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2015, 01:44:20 pm »
Quote
Easy way to determine which is the outer foil on unmarked caps (Lane's method)... wrap a bit of tin foil around the cap. Connect capacitance meter to tin foil and a leg of the cap. Whichever leg reads the least capacitance will be the outer foil.


Apologies for bringing this thread back from the dead, but I found the above quote on the Marshall forum. Does this method hold any weight? Seems like a pretty easy alternative. Thoughts?


I know it's only Rock and Roll, but I like it. \m/

Offline jojokeo

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2015, 03:09:31 pm »
Yes, this "should" work also but how well or any better than the other methods is debatable? This method is trying to create a (very very small) capacitance via the tin-foil and cap's leads. By definition the outer foil has the least resistance/capacitance to ground, therefor the least measurable capacitance measured between the difference between the two cap leads designates which is the outer foil side.

I've made a simple switching box w/ alligator clip leads soldered to signal & test probe jacks so that I can easily hook up my meter, the cap under test, and a signal source & speaker to do a bunch all at once. Then I throw them back into my parts bins marked & ready to use.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 04:15:26 pm by jojokeo »
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Offline Gainzilla

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2015, 03:15:53 pm »
Thanks for the info! This seems like an easy method to use in a pinch. I think I'll build the box and bulk test. Ideally, I'd also like to build a burn-in box and burn in all the signal caps as well prior to use. But that's a whole other story.


Cheers!
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Offline sluckey

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2015, 04:48:40 pm »
Quote
I'd also like to build a burn-in box and burn in all the signal caps as well prior to use. But that's a whole other story.
Can you share some info about this burn-in box? Not just how-to but also why info.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Gainzilla

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2015, 11:46:25 am »
No problem. I had googled to see if anyone had built a circuit that could expose capacitors to similar in-amp conditions, allowing them to "burn in" prior to install in an amp. As you may know, some caps (primarily Sozos, but I've read Dijon's and even Mallory 150s benefit from this) reportedly need to be burned in for 100 or so hours before they "sound good," (or maybe sound how they should sound). Turns out the guys on the 18watt forum have been doing this for a while with good results.


Assuming all this actually works, I could see a scenario where you burn your caps in for a couple days prior to your build, mark your foil ends (Sozos come marked), then install them in your build properly oriented and ready to rock. What can I say, I'm a dreamer.  :laugh:



Here is a thread about the box:
http://www.18watt.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=24679&p=237375&hilit=capacitor+burn+in#p237375


And photo gallery, including a layout:
http://www.18watt.com/gallery/v/JMPGuitars/CapBurnIn/
I know it's only Rock and Roll, but I like it. \m/

Offline tubenit

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2015, 11:57:20 am »
I do think speakers can be "broken in" and sound better after hrs of use.

I personally have not experienced anything like that regarding any other aspects of an amp such as capacitors, resistors or transformers which I can identify or attribute as being "better" after being burned in.

When my amp sounds better after some time.  I attribute this to learning how to set the volume/gain controls, tone controls and adjust my playing for that style of the amp.  OR ............ that a new speaker has been broken in.

OR ........... that I have simply become accustomed to a new tone and acquired a new (tone) taste or appreciation.
Like eating Texas BBQ and then eventually learning to like North Carolina BBQ  (without cole slaw on it of course). But not initially liking NC BBQ.

My 2 cents worth.   With respect, Tubenit

Offline Gainzilla

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2015, 12:02:06 pm »
I have that experience as well, just learning what the amp is great at and loving it for that rather than what you think it will sound like.


However, here is some info from the sozo website. Take it for what it's worth.


Quote

Break In
Simply; The sound gets clear. It at first sounds smeared.


Technically; Several things happen. The major thing is; during the break in period, the dielectric material (the insulating material) interacts negatively with the signal flow. The dielectric absorbs and releases energy as opposed to passing it through the capacitor. Uncooperatively, this is occurring at chaotic intervals.


This sporadic interaction is changing signal flow through the capacitor. However, the dielectric material changes over time as voltage is applied to the capacitor. The voltage creates heat, and a polarized skin forms on the surface of the dielectric (called skinning).


The dielectric then has a path through which to absorb and release energy, and does so at the correct times due to the formed path. (Like a path through a forest that is traveled over and over). Also over time, as voltage is applied to the conductors (the foil) the metal tempers, creating patterns as well (electricity will take the path of lowest resistance).


There are other reasons like skin effect (With an alternating current, there is a delay in the magnetic field’s response to the change in current and the ‘old’ magnetic field tends to push the current towards the outside of the conductor. As the frequency increases, so does the effect until at very high frequencies the entire current flows in a very narrow skin on the conductor–hence the name).


One other consideration is self inductance (The property of self inductance is a particular form of electromagnetic induction. Self inductance is defined as the induction of a voltage in a current-carrying material when the current in the wire itself is changing). Although this is a non-inductively wound capacitor; meaning, careful attention is made to not produce inductance with the design, there is an inductance due to the alternating voltage.


Every electrical component has a break in period. Some are more noticeable then others. Signal carrying components are the most obvious. It will take approximately 100 hours of operation for the capacitor to function to full performance.
I know it's only Rock and Roll, but I like it. \m/

Offline John

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2015, 06:32:43 pm »
I don't know nearly enough to have any opinion at all.


BUT I do foresee in the near future "pre-burned-in" tone caps at a premium price.  :icon_biggrin:
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2015, 07:33:47 pm »
Okay I'm sort of joking but why no mention of orange drops or Xicon chicklets? Is it only the dijon du jour caps? Maybe that's another reason why they are referred to as "turd" caps? Can I get a hotdog with my mustard please? :laugh:
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline Gainzilla

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2015, 01:16:00 pm »
lol, yeah it does smell a bit of snake oil. However, I have yet to purchase a Sozo simply because I don't want a set of crappy sounding caps for the first 100 hours.


One thing I noticed, however, that may be the difference is the composition of the dialectric. Mallory 150s, Mustards, and Sozos are all Polyester film. Within that subset, it could be the Mallory's construction (machine stretched/tensioned sheets of film, vs hand tensioned) techniques that help them overcome that. I think Mallorys sound fine out of the box, but I've also heard they improve in certain areas with some break-in as well. 715/716 ODs and Dijons are Polypropylene.


IDK... It's a little like sitting around talking about free will philosophy. lol
I know it's only Rock and Roll, but I like it. \m/

Offline casssax

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2015, 02:45:22 pm »
https://youtu.be/BnR_DLd1PDI
"Are Your Capacitors Installed Backwards? Build this and find out"

Here is another video and a testing device

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2015, 10:21:24 pm »
... However, here is some info from the sozo website. Take it for what it's worth. ...

There's often a nugget of truth in everything; but often that truth is irrelevant in audio-frequency amps...

Quote
Technically; Several things happen. The major thing is; during the break in period, the dielectric material (the insulating material) interacts negatively with the signal flow. The dielectric absorbs and releases energy as opposed to passing it through the capacitor.

Dielectric absorption is real; however, it is a known characteristic of different dielectric materials, which means some materials exhibit greater degrees of this characteristic than others. The "more perfect" the dielectric material (polystyrene, teflon, air, vacuum) the lower the dielectric absorption. I have no idea how long a cap has to be connected to an a.c. source to aborb electrons to its max capacity, but we generally have a decent d.c. source attached to coupling caps (albeit with a current-limiting plate load resistor). WIMA's cited test probably allows more charging current for the cap than a typical guitar amp, so maybe this factor is relevant to "break-in" though it also suggests that better dielectrics require less break-in.

Quote
There are other reasons like skin effect (With an alternating current, there is a delay in the magnetic field’s response to the change in current and the ‘old’ magnetic field tends to push the current towards the outside of the conductor. As the frequency increases, so does the effect until at very high frequencies the entire current flows in a very narrow skin on the conductor–hence the name).

Skin effect is real; however, it really applies at radio frequency and above. If you look at the chart under "Examples" on the linked page, you'll see the skin depth for copper @ 10kHz is ~0.5mm, but that's from each outside edge. If the wire is only 1mm think, skin effect has no effect. That said, RF stuff does have to be constructed with skin effect in mind, and microwave frequency equipment is so impacted by it that the conductors used are generally "waveguides" (see pic below). In those, electrical energy does travel through the hollow middle, but current per se is conducted along the solid outer shell. In any event, you'll probably face as much resistance-increase of your wiring due to poor prep/soldering as you do skin effect in audio frequency work.


Quote
One other consideration is self inductance (The property of self inductance is a particular form of electromagnetic induction. Self inductance is defined as the induction of a voltage in a current-carrying material when the current in the wire itself is changing). Although this is a non-inductively wound capacitor; meaning, careful attention is made to not produce inductance with the design, there is an inductance due to the alternating voltage.

This is poorly-written, because it appears to contradict itself. Self-inductance is real, and components like caps can be constructed to minimize their self-inductance. Again, self-inductance is most-relevant at RF because the apparent impedance for even a very small inductance gets bigger as frequency goes up. At RF, the self-inductance of a straight piece of wire might be significant; again RF circuits are constructed in a particular way to mitigate the negative effects. The result of self-inductance with a coupling cap would be some loss of high frequency output, but the added impedance will probably be exceedingly small at even high audio frequency and your speaker almost certainly rolls off massively more than you ever could through self-inductance in a coupling cap.

So dielectric absorption seems to be the biggest factor, though the posted information doesn't explain why any one brand of cap would need a longer break-in than any other cap using the same dielectric material (though I suppose a 10pF cap in a given material would have a shorter break-in than a 100uF cap of the same material, because there would be less dielectric material to soak up electrons).
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 11:23:04 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline uki

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2015, 08:20:45 pm »
Here another 2 cents for the thread  :icon_biggrin::

“Are Your Capacitors Installed Backwards? Build this and find out”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BnR_DLd1PDI
Theory is when everyone knows everything but nothing works, practice is when stuff works but nobody knows why !!!
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Offline tubenit

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Re: Capacitor foil orientation
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2016, 05:10:32 am »
From Pompeisneaks in response to this diagram:

I agree 100% with that orientation you've shown.


Quote
1. foil to ground
2. foil to lower impedance (previous stage)

That's pretty much it. 

If the cap goes to ground, the foil side shunts any potential noise it takes in to ground. 
If it comes into the cap it won't go on to the next stage and be multiplied/magnified if you have the second case
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 05:08:32 pm by tubenit »

 


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