Trainwreck Express vs Marshall 1987 Plexi

[jojokeo]

Looking for opinons/comments/feedback on tonalality, playability, & verisitility differences between these two great amps? How different are they actually - I'm not talking about their circuit differences.

Also, if you had a choice which would it be? Why?

[phsyconoodler]

The plexi has to have the channels jumpered and be cranked up to get it's tone but it really is a heavenly tone.
  The sounds are similar but the nod for me goes to the trainwreck if it's properly built.Both can be outstanding with the right speakers/guitars.The Circuit differences ARE what makes them sound different,particularly the output transformers.

[jojokeo]

I haven't actually played a 'wreck or even a clone of a wreck which is part of the reason for the questions. I'm being asked to try to do a special amp with both qualities. The only way in my mind is to create two seperate preamps the way they appear in the schems then combine them through two 220K resistors into the pi/pa which is basically the same for both.

As an added "twist", there's also a want to have the plexi's V1 interchangeable via a switch between the 12AX7 & an EF86...sort of a Voxy-plexi - all in a cab of course so microphonics won't be an issue.

Now it would be way easier to suggest building only a plexi or only a 'wreck with the EF86 switchable option and I'm wondering if the benefit of the extra channel would be worth the trouble and also sound & play different enough between the wreck & plexi circuits to justify doing both?

Could you enlighten me on the OT differences? (I already have a Mercury Axiom Marshall OT 3k4:8r if needed)

[SILVERGUN]

Joe, I just finished wiring up that Trainwreck type, and I'm still tweaking......BUT, I can tell you this...this amp is VERY input sensitive, with the tonestack and vol. control right after the first gain stage,and nothing else to get in it's way, it picks up every nuance of the guitar you plug into it.......it really wants to run away when you crank it
My biggest problem is that to get the sound I want out of it, I have to crank it, and that introduces some HEAVY feedback...but, I can control it if I back away from the amp, and I think thats where the magic is,,,,,in that "on the brink of feedback area"...it just lights it up.....My B+ is too high and it comes off brittle but when I hooked the Variac in there and brought the plates to 400vdc, it brown'd it out very nicely....I threw some EL34s in there today and biased em, but had to leave work and didn't get a chance to play em,,,,,but with 6V6 in there and the reduced B+ the thing was screaming and singing nicely...
Playability wise it is very stiff for my taste, despite the sag resistor....it picks up EVERYTHING...I'm gonna work on that and experiment with a lower gain tube for the first two stages...  
I think I'm gonna like the EL34s and I'll probably put a Marshall style master vol. in it, because I just don't need to be that loud.
If you do the wreck shoot for 400 v B+, using 280-0-280 secondary
As far as versatility, I don't see either of those amps as versatile...
If I had your knowledge I would figure out how to use the magic of the wreck's frontend and take it to the next level!

This conversation is definitely not over, but I gotta run......I'm gonna go heads up against a jcm 800 later this week and I'll report back....I'm really learning a lot and having fun with this, and I look forward to hearing what other's opinions are.

I attached the exact schematic that I used...I have made some adjustments,,,,but so far nothing major

[phsyconoodler]

The real magic of the Trainwreck is in your guita's volume knob.Turn it down and you get killer shimmering cleans tones to die for.Turn it up and it gets higher-gain rippin' marshally type tones but thick and juicy.
  I agree about using lower plate voltages near 400v or so,but a couple I converted from other amps had up to 500v on the plates and they were all yummy sounding.
  I even converted a class 5 marshall into a 'wreck and let me tell you,it rules over the stock class 5 circuit!
 Learning to use the guitar volume or using a floor volume pedal is the best thing to get the most from the 'wreck.
  Plexi's love to be cranked but do like pedals quite a bit too.A rangemaster or Beano pedal and you are set.

[smackoj]

Let me start by saying I don't own either amp that you have in this discussion, so my input maybe weighted on a lower scale? However, I have listened to many a well tuned Plexi and I am a BIG fan of that amp in the hands of Warren Haynes and Dickie Betts. I would also say that getting both sounds from one chassis and one OT would seem a stretch at first glance to me? So, if I had to choose one or the other as the foundation, I would go Plexi due to proven performance and likeability that has stood the test of time. Just one man's opinion mind you.

I know there are several makers of Plexi repro OTs out there. Magnetic Components used to make an OT not long ago that was touted as a repro of the "TW style OT"  but looking at the Triode Store web page, I no longer see it.  There is another US outlet for Mag Comp OTs and they may stock it ?   

Jack D

[Backwoods Joe]

Can't go wrong either way.... but the X-wreck is the most fun amp to play.  As these guys have said, unbelievably touch sensitive. I have 6v6's in mine and honestly, it will go from blackface deluxe to Van Halen just by controlling the guitar Vol.

[SILVERGUN]

JJ, I can't believe the lack of responses to this post,,,,,but I'm very curious,,,and you've really got me thinking

I really like the idea of 2 dedicated preamp boards, OR, just combining the best of both worlds into one "superamp"

I guess it comes down to what the customer wants to accomplish.....is he going for the VH 1 tone?

Would you call this a good example of the 87?:

Holy crap...I was looking on You tube for a good example to insert here BUT WTF???.....I can't believe the CRAP people post on there....I love the guys that have the master on 1 with the recorder so close that you can hear more of the strings being picked than anything else...most of the stuff is modded, or re-issue so I didn't think that would make a good comparison........this guy should rethink this:
1968/1958 Les Paul Standard "Cranking" Marshall 1987


I didn't think of this at first, but he must be grimacing because of how LOUD that's gotta be right there.....it's only a matter of time until blood starts coming out of his ears

[Ed_Chambley]

I prefer the clean from the Marshall.  I have always really liked Marshall clean tones with Humbuckers.  I have never played a real express, but I have played a number of clones and while psyco is correct in rolling back to get the express to clean up, I still like the plexi.  There is really nothing like a Les Paul running through a plexi with vintage 30's, but it has to be a little loud.  It is the tone of rock.  Very straightforward rock tone and roll off a little and open ringing chords are a delight.

Not sure if a Vox tone will come from this power section, but I have tried many things looking for a tone and ended up with something I really like that I did not expect.  That is why I build.

[zendragon63]

Hi jojokeo; I will freely admit that I am biased to most things Marshall. Plexi's are great. However the 'wreck style is worth considering. Deceptively simple but brutally loud and proud. Phsyconoodler is indeed correct that the magic is no further than you guitar volume and tone controls. I have built several clone variations with meduim and lower powered finals and VVRs. For those who may have heard or think that it is a one trick pony--and I initially fell into that camp--you may find that you just have to relearn how to play using such a touch sensitive amp. There is a simple (fast-gradual) voltage divider you can add to take some of the gain out of it and that in itself gives it the versitility that makes it usable for a wider range of genre.

There is an almost cult following of clone builders over at ampgarage. They are talented and knowledgeable in all things Trainwreck. Just my .02. Regards

dennis

. 

[printer2]

Maybe you guys can take a look at this. Added a 12AX7 and Wreck components, a four pole switch to change from Plexi to Wreck, tone pot values adjusted to get the proper response with either circuit, tone and volume pots are dual pots so one set of knobs, NFB change between modes. Almost forgot, also split bias switch on input.

[jojokeo]

Very nice and thoughtful replies everyone, thank you. There really isn't a whole lot of difference in tone stack values from the versions I've seen but printer's are more unfamiliar from what I've seen. Usually the difference is the slope resistor and/or the treble cap. Pot value differences aren't that much off from each other also (250/1m btwn them) and I don't think make as big of a difference. However they will affect the range of the controls and the load a bit along with the paralleled resistance with the prior gain stage's plate. How much this affects things to be even noticeabley different is up for debate or until heard.

The main differences as I see it is the actual placement of the tone stack and with or w/out the cathode follower. The 'wreck seems to be more inherently a bluesier/early to classic rock style of amp vs the plexi's beautiful cleans all the way to the raucus high gains we all know, love, and heard on countless recordings from 8-tracks and cassettes to CDs and DVDs.

I like Zen's lower watt version ideas of controlling overall output & will likely use a ppimv but not sure VVR will be implemented/necessary? This would be another major consideration to ponder in the design.

[worth]

I wonder if that insect has seen himself.... I thought the video was some kind YouTube joke.

[jojokeo]

I wonder if that insect has seen himself.... I thought the video was some kind YouTube joke.

Wow if you can get over the looks part this cat has got ALOT of serious gear AND major tone and chops so I say kudos to him. He's actually rather humble as well.

Steely Dan's "Reelin' in the (New!) Years" Featuring Mr. Elliott Randall (SoloDallas cover, SVDS)

[jojokeo]

Well now look what just came out on baywatch...Constance for 10g's (I wonder how many real ladies that much doe-rae-me would buy?) lol You could buy about 7 or 8 Plexi's too.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=321010187611&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

[smackoj]

maybe Billy Gibbons or Joe Walsh might pay for it? if you go around to gigs telling everyone you have KF's amp, you'd be filing a theft report in a week. same thing with '59 LPs.....if the pros use 'em anywhere they go under armed guard.

[Willabe]

Yeah man! That guy in the buck skin jacket can play!

Just a little over the top with the facial stuff. OTOH, you ever see Robin Trower?     


              Brad     

[FYL]

Well now look what just came out on baywatch...Constance for 10g's

Not a 'Wreck but an "Authorized Reissue" by JM. The last two real 'wrecks - the Songwriter 30 and a derivative - were built by Ken F. in 2005.

[Ritchie200]

Hey Will, don't you be shaggin' on my buddy Robin!

Ya know, the fact that they are bragging about a "Hand selected vintage (Really?!?!) groove toob" in it and it's a fricken 12ax7 to boot - tells me this thing should be priced at about $500. 

I'm the last person who should throw stones at someone buying or selling celebrity music gear - but come on!!!

Jim

[Willabe]

No, I love Trowers music. Saw him a couple times got a lot of his albums/Cd's.

But come on he can twist his face more than silly putty.


              Brad     

[SILVERGUN]

Nice thread jojo, has it helped you at all?...
I gotta be honest, I dont have the magic ears and really cant tell THAT MUCH difference between the TW or Plexi....

I'm most curious to know what the guy that's gonna play out of the amp is trying to accomplish...

My thought is this:
Make the SUPER AMP-----The Plexi-Wreck.....switchable EF86 (if you must).....rippin' Marshall meets sweet singing OD Express

Get all of these big-brained, comedian, guitar god, amp experts around here to help design and build and share something to inject some excitement into EL34 world....go ahead...I dare ya!!

C'mon, the PS and PA sections are already finished
I smell a challenge

[printer2]

Nice thread jojo, has it helped you at all?...
I gotta be honest, I dont have the magic ears and really cant tell THAT MUCH difference between the TW or Plexi....

I'm most curious to know what the guy that's gonna play out of the amp is trying to accomplish...

My thought is this:
Make the SUPER AMP-----The Plexi-Wreck.....switchable EF86 (if you must).....rippin' Marshall meets sweet singing OD Express

Get all of these big-brained, comedian, guitar god, amp experts around here to help design and build and share something to inject some excitement into EL34 world....go ahead...I dare ya!!

C'mon, the PS and PA sections are already finished
I smell a challenge

I don't have a EF86. How about a 6U8A?

[SoundmasterG]

The Reelin in the Years cover was cool and the guy can play, but the original recording was done using a Strat straight into an Ampeg SVT. That comes straight from Elliot Randall who I asked about it about 10 years ago. So either he is joshing me like Billy Gibbons does or it is what he has used...and I've seen that reference elsewhere so I tend to believe him. :)

Greg

[HotBluePlates]

... the original recording was done using a Strat straight into an Ampeg SVT. ...

And to think the engineer protested when EC cranked his 50w 1962 for the Beano album...

My thought is this:
Make the SUPER AMP-----The Plexi-Wreck.....switchable EF86 (if you must).....rippin' Marshall meets sweet singing OD Express

Get all of these big-brained, comedian, guitar god, amp experts around here to help design and build and share something to inject some excitement into EL34 world....go ahead...I dare ya!!

I've never played a 'Wreck, original or clone. I'm also not a 'Wreck specialist, so I may not know the whole story. But my limited understanding is much of the magic is designing the phase inverter and preamp to break into distortion approximately when the output tubes do. That enables a player to go from cleanish to wild distortion with volume knob and pick attack variation. Downside might be that you run the amp at full output power/volume to get in the magic zone.

So it's not just a different topology for the preamp; it's juggling the operation of the whole amp to give up in synch. By comparison, most old designs made sure not earlier tube stage distorted before the output tubes (to allow maximum clean volume). There may not be any particular care in the operating point of the earlier stages, so long as they stay essentially clean.

For my present situation, a 50w amp is just impractical. But I did just pick up a Valve Jr from a pawn shop for cheap. It's probably easier to monkey the VJ to act like a Wreck.

[SILVERGUN]

But my limited understanding is much of the magic is designing the phase inverter and preamp to break into distortion approximately when the output tubes do. That enables a player to go from cleanish to wild distortion with volume knob and pick attack variation. Downside might be that you run the amp at full output power/volume to get in the magic zone.

Interesting,,, I've been messing around with resistor values in the tail and NFB positions....can you guys tell me what mistakes to "not make"....what is a good way to determine "balance" there?

I'll create a new thread so as not to hijack jojo's, and maybe you guys can help me get my wreck where I want it...ok, here it is:
http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=14575.0

[SILVERGUN]

I don't have a EF86. How about a 6U8A?

The first rule for the Plexi-Wreck challenge is that we will not be able to just post a schematic (as nice as it may look )......it will have to be accompanied by a build, include sound clips, and use topology from both amps.........right now I've only got a wreck that sounds a little "ho hum" to me, but I'm willing to tweak it for the greater good......where do we start?

Check this out if you haven't:
http://www.dougcircuits.com/EF86.html

Or this:
http://site.tubedepot.com/pdf/british18w_v6b.pdf

[printer2]

Well if it is against the rules to swap ideas I'll have to just continue on with my other projects.

[jojokeo]

Well if it is against the rules to swap ideas I'll have to just continue on with my other projects.

That's not the case printer, ideas are good.

HBP - Good info to file away, as is the OT info, voltage info, etc... However - I have my own ideas about these things and don't think they're the end-all/must haves to good tone & playability. Too many ingredients to single out but a few to make a great stew or chili.

In the meanwhile I hand drew some ideas while watching football, world series, paladia, Hurricane Sandy updates, Hawaii sunami alert, etc...it's been a busy weekend aside from the usual election mud slinging & other crapola.

Of some of the drawings there would be way too many controls taking up space. So in the end I cut up a few bits and pieces with an end goal of sharing one single tone stack. This makes it much more realistically do-able.

First compiling information and ideas:

[jojokeo]

2nd drawing of ideas coming together but still not sharing the tone stack - too many controls still

[jojokeo]

Okay now it's getting somewhere after cutting and pasting - litterally. Not sure if the DPTT toggle switch would be needed or not? but here's a quicky example also.

[cbass]

Well for starters the wreck has much more gain than the plexi.I would estimate the TW on 5 is about the some gain as the plexi dimed.
Not to be a wet blanket but I don't think you will get the TW effect buy just switching components in the preamp.The power supply and the OT are a lot different from a plexi.If someone built an express and didn't use the right PT OT and copy the exact layout then I wouldn't be surprised if it sounded so so.

The express is deceptivily simple but it is one the verge of being out of control.Notice there isn't much  gain being knocked down between stages.Its not to hard to end up with a squealing mess. Preamp tubes make a huge difference.I had tubes thta were perfect in other amps in the express they might hum or be microphonic.

If I was a smokin lead player I would want the express.If was  playing rythym and competing with the bass to be heard Plexi.
I like the concorde to me its the best of both worlds.

[SILVERGUN]

Well if it is against the rules to swap ideas I'll have to just continue on with my other projects.

Sorry printer2, no offense meant...all in good fun....your idea looks great, I just cant hear it
I gotta lay off the red bull....I knew I was gonna hurt somebodys feelings

For the record,,,the Plexi-wreck challenge is a fictional contest that only exists in MY head

[jojokeo]

Well for starters the wreck has much more gain than the plexi.I would estimate the TW on 5 is about the some gain as the plexi dimed.

That's because of the additional stages after the tone stack. Yes, I get it. Thanks for the comments cbass!

[printer2]

Well if it is against the rules to swap ideas I'll have to just continue on with my other projects.

Sorry printer2, no offense meant...all in good fun....your idea looks great, I just cant hear it
I gotta lay off the red bull....I knew I was gonna hurt somebodys feelings

For the record,,,the Plexi-wreck challenge is a fictional contest that only exists in MY head

Sorry, should have put a smiley at the end, no offense taken. I have way too many projects on the go right now even if the challenge were on, a couple of amp ideas, one being close to the the second schematic, a pint sized 5E3 - BF cross, an all pentode low voltage (40V) take on, a Marshall am, can't remember if it was a plexi, two Tele's and a semi-hollow guitar builds. And then there are the other projects I put on the back burner. Oh, I also made up my mind to learn how to play the guitar a bit.

[printer2]

Well for starters the wreck has much more gain than the plexi.I would estimate the TW on 5 is about the some gain as the plexi dimed.

That's because of the additional stages after the tone stack. Yes, I get it. Thanks for the comments cbass!

Actually where the tone stack is placed in the circuit does not change the gain, if you have, gain-1 tone-stack gain-2 gain-3, you have the same gain as gain-1 gain-2 gain-3 tone-stack, what changes is the distortion characteristic rather than the overall gain. The reason the TW seems to have more gain is that it actually has three gain stages before the PI while the Plexi only has two.