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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Newb first amp build  (Read 23042 times)

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Offline rakkassan34

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #100 on: June 06, 2014, 02:22:58 pm »
I haven't plugged a guitar into it yet. I still have the 1 ohm resistors in there that I used to bias it. I don't know if it's ok to plug a guitar in while those are still in

Offline eleventeen

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #101 on: June 06, 2014, 02:41:10 pm »
Those get left in as a permanent item, for any time you wish to measure bias. A vacuum tube amp circuit doesn't have the slightest idea what a 1 ohm resistor is, it doesn't know or care that it is there.

Offline rakkassan34

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #102 on: June 06, 2014, 04:31:57 pm »
Well it seems to work fine now. No more noise but I'm going to have my bud bring his gretsch and humbuckers tomorrow and put it through hell.

Offline rakkassan34

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #103 on: June 06, 2014, 06:24:52 pm »
I'll give it a try tomorrow. Previously it was the opposite. It broke up sooner the hotter I made the bias eve though it lowered voltage across the tubes.

Offline rakkassan34

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #104 on: June 07, 2014, 10:46:27 am »
It is getting better and better. It only breaks up now when he hits the top string hard and the volume is at least half way up. It sounds like someone kicking a door one time really hard. I tried the 12AT7 tube in V1 with the same result. Other than that this thing is very very clear, has a great tone and surprisingly loud.
Further testing revealed the 12AT7 tube have the amp a better tone
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 03:14:54 pm by rakkassan34 »

Offline eleventeen

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #105 on: June 07, 2014, 04:48:32 pm »
You could become even happier with a 12AY7 or a 5751 in there. Sometimes, even often I would say, using those really, really tames an amp nicely.

Offline rakkassan34

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #106 on: June 07, 2014, 05:33:59 pm »
Would you reccomend replacing all 4 of the pre amp tubes or just V1?

Offline eleventeen

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #107 on: June 07, 2014, 10:46:48 pm »
This depends upon how you use the amp and I should have clarified this. When I used the term "V1" I was meaning more in the generic sense of the word as in "the first preamp tube" = meaning the first tube your guitar signal hits. Fender amps of this era DO NOT use a labeling of tubes such as "V1" or "V2" ---there simply is no such nomenclature on the schematics. So, in the absence of such labeling, we amp dudes often refer to "the first preamp tube" as "V1" even if there really is no such thing in this case. But we seem to know what is being talked about. (Now you can send in and get your magic decoder ring!) Most other manufacturers DO apply such a label to the tubes...which is completely arbitrary. One mfr could label the GZ34 as V1, another might label the first little tube V1 and it would not matter.


If you want to lower your  gain which will have the effect of A: giving you more rotation before breakup on the volume control (meaning, you will be able to turn that control up to say 8 instead of 5 before the amp starts to break up--but this does not affect watts at the output) and B: kind of smoothing out the response of the amp, then swapping a 12AY7 or 5751 for the stock 12AX7 in "the first preamp tube the signal hits" is a very painless and obviously reversible way to achieve this. 

On a 6Gx or AAxxx (meaning white or brown or black separate-head-style, not Tweed) Bassman, the "first" channel is labeled "BASS INSTRUMENT" and if you are plugged in there, the first tube your signal hits is the rightmost (as viewed from the rear) little tube, the tube most distant from the power tubes.

Should you use the amp for guitar and you plug into the "NORMAL" channel then "the first preamp tube your guitar signal hits" would be >>"V3"<< the THIRD physical tube, starting your counting at the right.

So if you NEVER play through the BASS channel, there is no need for or benefit to changing the first tube....you'll never hear it. If you only play through the NORMAL channel and wish to do this change, swap out >>V3<<. The third-from-the-right tube. For the normal channel, that is "the first preamp tube".

You should probably NOT change out V2 = post tone stack control gain recovery nor V4 (phase inverter) But you can, if you want to. The 12AU7, 12AY7, 12AT7, 12AZ7, and 12AX7 tubes all have the same basing diagram and current consumption and voltage capability and swapping them out in any fashion you can imagine will definitely not hurt anything. If you believe your amp sounds better with a 12AU7 phase inverter, by all means, swap it out. The 12AU7 is about the lowest-gain member of this family....who knows, maybe if this "overload" problem you mention on big fat notes is an issue, there's a case to be made for making that change on V4. You can't hurt anything by doing so. You either like or don't like the result, leave it or swap it back. 

Many people like using a 12AU7 as the reverb driver in Fender reverb amps. More (actually less) power to 'em. On Fender reverb amps, I have found you really can't turn the reverb knob past about 3-1/2 anyway without going full mud. Answer: Swap in a lower gain 12AU7 tube for the 12AT7. Easy, obvious solution. Also on Fender reverb amps, most people never, ever use the normal channel. Ever. Such people who wished to try the 12AY7 trick on the reverb channel would swap out THE SECOND little tube. 

If you consider that any of those four tubes could be changed to 4 or 5 different types (12AZ7 is rather uncommon) and of those types, 6-10 different brands (if you think Sylvanias sound different than RCAs and different from JJ's and different from Telefunkens) there are hundreds and hundreds of different possibilities. There are lots of adherents to this type of thing and lots of web pages devoted to this particular religion. 



Offline rakkassan34

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #108 on: June 08, 2014, 05:10:35 am »
That would explain why it took me forever to find V1  :laugh: This amp was built focusing on chasing that Setzer tone mainly focusing on the normal channel being used with hollow body guitars. With that said guess where I put the 12At7... Yep right where the Bass channel input goes. I had two diff people play on it yesterday and they both told me the whole amp sounds great but the Bass input sounds better. On a side note not mentioned before in any of my posts I did clip the treble bleed cap as suggested by numerous internet posts to get a better tone out of a guitar since I don't plan on this being used for a bass guitar. With no treble bleed cap in, no guitar plugged in, volume turned all the way up, all other controls turned all the way down, I turned the bass all the way up and don't have the slightest hum, buzz, or any type of noise at all through the speakers. This was the same for both channels. Now for the treble test, all other controls turned all the way down, volume up, each treble control had a buzz, very quiet and two different tones. I also noticed that the treble on each channel affects the other. I've since put a treble bleed cap in but went with a 250pf silver mica. I think that helped with the breaking up I was having issues with earlier. The treble pots still buzz nothing's changed there and they both affect each other still. Yesterday I got the best tone out of the normal side with its treble on about 2 and the bass side treble on about 5.
Everyone's very happy with the amp including me but I still want to play around with different tubes. I have to control myself from getting inside the amp and changing more components out or else I'll never finish this thing. I'm going on a week vacation and then going to finish the cabinet up and get hot on another amp. I'm thinking another bassman build like this one with a reverb pan.  :icon_biggrin:

Offline rakkassan34

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #109 on: June 08, 2014, 07:03:52 am »
https://soundcloud.com/tags/my%20amp%20breaking%20up
I hope I figured this out

Here's a clip of a guy that walked into the shop asked about what I was working on. Dan lent him his Gretsch to try it out. After 30 min of playing the guy (Roger) looked up at me and asked if I plan on building any more. He loved it. Unfortunately I'm not confident enough in my building skills to sell one yet. I really never planned on selling any of them I build. I just got hooked on building them and this is my first one as you all know.
https://soundcloud.com/eric-easley-3/roger-playing-my-amp
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 07:09:24 am by rakkassan34 »

Offline eleventeen

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #110 on: June 08, 2014, 02:40:29 pm »
"Now for the treble test, all other controls turned all the way down, volume up, each treble control had a buzz, very quiet and two different tones. I also noticed that the treble on each channel affects the other. I've since put a treble bleed cap in but went with a 250pf silver mica. I think that helped with the breaking up I was having issues with earlier. The treble pots still buzz nothing's changed there and they both affect each other still. Yesterday I got the best tone out of the normal side with its treble on about 2 and the bass side treble on about 5. "


I have little experience with "white covered" "early-early" 60's Fenders eg; 6G6....versus "blackface and black-tolexed" Fenders say 1963 and later. That said, the tone stacks look "sort of similar" at first glance but they are not. They are quite a bit different. So I could be way off base and I'd wait to see if any other forum members have any different ideas. I notice the early preamp stages have 220K plate resistors versus the 100K plate Rs typical of blackface models. Then, both preamps (Bass and Normal) feed a common point with 470K resistors versus 220K on later models.
Generically, these higher resistances are more susceptible to noise and of course they are early in the gain chain......so you hear it. It's also quite possible that these amps are inherently more noisy than later ones.
 
I *do* know that on a blackface Fender, if all the tone controls are turned all the way down, the amp will put out almost nothing.


I am curious about your observation that the treble control affect each other, and buzz. If it were me trying to fix those complaints, I think I would:


1: Replace all the preamp plate resistors with metal films. All of them. Somewhat of a pain in the butt, but for 6 * 30 cents....you could potentially solve a lingering problem. Note that in the case of the first BASS channel preamp tube, the second triode of that channel is a cathode follower and the cathode sits on top of a 100K resistor. THAT is the one I would replace with a MF in the search-and-destroy noise hunt. 


1a: It might also make sense to replace the 470K resistors with MFs, AND to consider reducing their values to 220K or 330K. 


2: Place 20 ufd/450 volt electrolytic caps on the preamp node, "out in the amplifier"---close to the tubes that those nodes feed---on node B and node C versus in the centralized e-cap section, eg; the "doghouse". These, you can temporarily tack in keeping the leads long and see if they help. If they don't, pull them out and you will use them in your next build, so no big deal. I happen to like radial (eg; PC-mount, cheaper) caps for this application rather than axial (leads at each end-more traditional and more expensive) form factor. 

[size=78%] [/size]












« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 02:45:09 pm by eleventeen »

Offline rakkassan34

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #111 on: June 08, 2014, 03:24:46 pm »
Your advice has been a tremondous help so far eleventeen. When I get off vacation I'll give your new suggestions a try. Did you listen to the first sound clip? That's the breaking up I was talking about. That sound clip is after I did the fixes. It's only doing it now with treble all the way up and volume about 6

Offline sluckey

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #112 on: June 08, 2014, 03:38:03 pm »
Quote
I also noticed that the treble on each channel affects the other.
Surely something is wired incorrectly.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline rakkassan34

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #113 on: June 09, 2014, 11:50:47 am »
Another short soundclip
http://youtu.be/NExvgVKorng

Offline rakkassan34

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #114 on: June 09, 2014, 11:59:43 am »
Another short clip of my buddy Dan playing on my amp
http://youtu.be/77SNo-lFDLY

Offline rakkassan34

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #115 on: June 15, 2014, 07:51:02 am »
Ok back from vacation and recorded the buzzing I'm getting. I haven't replaced anything since my last post or tried any fixes yet. My vacation set me back a week. Let me know what y'all think is causing this. The buzz on the normal side is barely noticeable and gets quieter as you turn the treble up. The buzz on the bass side is louder and gets louder as the treble gets turned up. With the bias pot all the way down the buzz is almost gone.

https://soundcloud.com/eric-easley-4/img-2536


Offline eleventeen

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #116 on: June 15, 2014, 12:34:51 pm »
Are you under (or...on the same circuit as) a fluorescent lamp, or do you have a dimmer on the lights in your shop or wherever you're working?


I ask this because some of the noise you are getting is "harsh" type noise, some is hum. Some of that "harsh" sounds like dimmer noise. To me.


Before going nuts trying to banish hum from an amp, external sources should be eliminated. Obviously, nothing you do inside the amp can kill noise originating from outside the amp. Some dimmers, some fluorescent lights really spew lots of noise. Newer fluorescents often having switching ballasts instead of older transformer ballasts. Under the "right" conditions, those can really spray out a lot of noise. 


I usually play through a POD. The power supply for the POD will induce a fair amount of hum in the (hopped up) Princeton Reverb I play through half the time if it's placed on top of the amp. In back of the amp, no problem. The Peavey Valveking I use the other half of the time has ONE particular spot where if the POD supply is there it makes an unbelievable cacophony of noise. Like you'd never believe. Move it a foot away, gone.


Amps pulled out of the chassis and lacking the metal shield that's usually present in the underside of the surface where the handle is can be very susceptible to externally induced hum and noise of all kinds.






Offline rakkassan34

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #117 on: June 15, 2014, 06:23:01 pm »
Actually I have the amp plugged into the store where I work at and it's all fluorescent lighting crappy ones at that. They flicker and buzz constantly. I don't know if a surge protector power strip would have any effect on it but it was plugged into one of those also. I'll bring it home one day and plug it in to see if I get any noise. I have a good feeling that you're right about the lighting though. Those things make so much noise that it drives me nuts when it's quiet in there and all you can hear are those things buzzing away.
Thank you, you saved my sanity because I was about to go on that never ending buzz elimination hunt. Now I need to get the dag gum cabinet built so this thing can be enjoyed.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #118 on: June 15, 2014, 10:14:09 pm »
I once had a guy's amp for repair, and he complained of hum. I plugged it in at my place (with nothing in the input jack), and got no hum. Plugged in my guitar, no hum.


I took the amp back over to the guy's place, where he plugged in his fiddle with a pickup in the bridge. Crazy hum. We figured out the hum wasn't the amp, or even his house wiring (I brought an outlet checker to be sure), but a lack of a "string ground" on his fiddle comparable to the string ground on a guitar. We ran a bare copper wire from his output jack's ground over to his chin-rest, and as soon as the fiddle was in playing position, the hum was neutralized.


You'll find cases where the problem with the amp isn't in the amp.

Offline rakkassan34

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #119 on: June 26, 2014, 06:22:34 am »
Now that I have it build I'm trying to learn what all the components are called, what they do and what would changing the value of them do. I've been scouring the net for a simple board layout for the bassman 6g6-b with the names of the capacitors and resistors on it ie. plate resistor, input capacitor etc. Anyone seen anything like that around the net?

Last weekend I cleaned the treble pots just for shtz and giggles and the hiss from the normal channel went away, the bass channel same thing but I'm thinking y'all are right about the lighting doing that. Yesterday the pot on the normal channel started hissing again and now it's operating backwards, I turn it up the treble lessens I turn it down I get more treble. I'm still scratching my head on that one. How can it be working great one weekend and with no changes now working backwards. I'm questioning my treble pot and presence pot wiring now. It's still a joy to work on and everyone that comes to the shop says it sounds great, thanks to you all of course. Without y'alls help I'm pretty sure I'd still be fighting with insurance company over fire damage   :laugh:

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #120 on: June 26, 2014, 04:13:29 pm »
... it's operating backwards, I turn it up the treble lessens I turn it down I get more treble. ...

You have a 250kΩ Treble pot, with a 1MΩ resistor and a 0.01uF cap from the "ground lug" of the pot to ground. This is very important!

Normally, the parts to ground aren't there on most Treble controls you're probably used to using. What this means is there is some critical point on the Treble control's rotation above which it boosts treble, but below which it rolls off treble.

So I think your Treble control is working properly, but just exhibits different behavior than you're accustomed to having. All the more reason to fiddle the knob while listening instead of setting the control to a certain number setting you typically use!  :icon_biggrin: (it can be hard getting some players out of that habit)

Offline rakkassan34

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Re: Newb first amp build
« Reply #121 on: June 27, 2014, 01:16:56 pm »
You're exactly right. The treble is working good, just not what I'm used to. Man this thing sounds great.

 


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