Author Topic: Vibratone/Leslie build (Read 28725 times)

TIMBO · « **on:** July 05, 2014, 01:45:29 am »

Hi guys, Thought I would start a new topic as there will be questions.

Brad, I was lucky to get the real deal motors and cheese wheel. Its a cool effect, so i'll box it up and get it working right.

Willabe · « **Reply #1 on:** July 05, 2014, 11:54:51 am »

Wow, nice Timbo!

Brad

TIMBO · « **Reply #2 on:** July 05, 2014, 04:10:07 pm »

Hi guys, This is the switching circuit so far, please add anything if required. Thanks

Willabe · « **Reply #3 on:** July 05, 2014, 06:36:37 pm »

Timbo, I have the same type of set up as you. Mine had an 8" speaker in it, what size speaker did yours have?

The styrofoam wheel measures 14.25" but the hole in the speaker baffle is only 7".

These Leslie units were sold to different company's for different things, some were built into organ cabinets and some were stand alone units. They used different sized speakers, 8", 10' or 12".

I'm wondering if they all had a 7" hole in the speaker baffle no matter what sized speaker they used?

Brad

TIMBO · « **Reply #4 on:** July 05, 2014, 08:19:27 pm »

Hey Brad, This unit had an 8" made in Japan speaker and i think that the hole was about 7". As far as I know this unit came out of a Hammond organ.

I only enlarged the diameter by about 1/2" to use a 10" speaker as I would think that if the hole was much bigger, the sound would leak around the wheel rather than being directed via the flue in the wheel

Willabe · « **Reply #5 on:** July 05, 2014, 09:44:03 pm »

Quote from: TIMBO on July 05, 2014, 08:19:27 pm

I only enlarged the diameter by about 1/2" to use a 10" speaker as I would think that if the hole was much bigger, the sound would leak around the wheel rather than being directed via the flue in the wheel

I think you right. That's why I'm starting to wonder if all of those units had only a 7" speaker baffle hole?

Brad

TIMBO · « **Reply #6 on:** July 07, 2014, 01:27:40 am »

Hey guys, I'm getting help from some of the local guys, as I know nothing about electric motors and some changes to the switching circuit.Thanks

sluckey · « **Reply #7 on:** July 07, 2014, 05:22:44 am »

Timbo, I'm curious why you are using two dc relays? You only need one. And if you use a common 24VAC relay with 24VAC transformer (such as found in HVAC systems) you could drop all the power supply circuitry too.

Willabe · « **Reply #8 on:** July 07, 2014, 10:34:22 am »

Hey I found this picture and it came stock with a Jenson 12" speaker in it.

Looking at the foam rotor drum scoop size and baffle cut out, it looks exactly like mine.

So I'm thinking now that ALL the standard 2 speed Leslie's sold to different manufacturers for them to use in their organs and stand alone Leslie's such as Fenders 16/18 models came with a standard 7" speaker baffle hole no matter if they used an 8", a 10" or a 12" speaker.

I did find 1 guy that said his 122/147 Leslie that has the standard 15" bass speaker has a 14 1/3" (1/3" ?????

~~1/3" = 4"?)~~ baffle hole.

(Edit; There I go again thinking too fast, all wound up, mind spinning like the Leslie, result, NOT thinking.

1/3" = ~ 5/16"? anyway,)

I have to find my Hammond/Leslie book "Love of the B" and see if there's any info in there.

Brad

Willabe · « **Reply #9 on:** July 07, 2014, 11:32:48 am »

Here's a couple more that I just found from a model 120. It came stock with a single 12" speaker.

Baffle hole is smaller than the rotor drum. You can see this clearly in the 2nd photo.

I'm thinking the speaker baffle hole was cut to be the ~same size as the baffle's scoop not the speaker.

Brad

TIMBO · « **Reply #10 on:** July 07, 2014, 02:03:02 pm »

Thanks guys, Sluckey , I have had a hard time trying to get the brain to nut this one out for one relay, I would prefer to use one relay as the control box I have is small. You might need to draw me a picture. Thanks

G._Hoffman · « **Reply #11 on:** July 07, 2014, 02:04:27 pm »

I put a twelve inch speaker with a normal sized hole (11 and whatever inches") on a drum made for a 10" speaker (the drum is probably 14-16"), and have had no problems sound wise.

I do need to either make a VFD (variable frequency drive) for it, or get a two speed motor, as mine only came with a one speed fast motor.

Gabriel

Willabe · « **Reply #12 on:** July 07, 2014, 02:11:10 pm »

Hi Gabe,

That doesn't make sense, how could they cut a speaker baffle hole larger then the speaker and then be able to mount the speaker to the baffle?

Brad

Willabe · « **Reply #13 on:** July 07, 2014, 02:26:39 pm »

Timbo, here's the schemo fro the Fender Vibrotone, it uses 1 relay.

Brad

sluckey · « **Reply #14 on:** July 07, 2014, 03:40:33 pm »

Here's the schematic for the motor control only. I did not want to muddy the pic with the speaker switching. And I left off the suppression caps across the relay contacts too.

Willabe · « **Reply #15 on:** July 07, 2014, 06:37:30 pm »

Timbo, here's a link for a very brief description on how the 2 speed/2 motor system, it's very cleaver IMO and not what you'd expect ;

http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16136.0;attach=39179

Brad

G._Hoffman · « **Reply #16 on:** July 07, 2014, 07:38:59 pm »

Quote from: Willabe on July 07, 2014, 02:11:10 pm

Hi Gabe,

That doesn't make sense, how could they cut a speaker baffle hole larger then the speaker and then be able to mount the speaker to the baffle?

Brad

I used a 12" speaker. I had to leave some extra bits to accommodate the mounting for the rotor. This is the best photo I can get at the moment. The baffle is a replacement that I made, as the original was (of course) for a 10" speaker, and also because I didn't like the chipboard they used to make it.

Gabriel

Willabe · « **Reply #17 on:** July 07, 2014, 07:43:57 pm »

Timbo, here's a link that I started on a Leslie unit I got a hold of and all the Fender spec sheets/schemos I found for it are in the thread, if you don't have them.

please take pictures as you go (I know you always do) because someday I'd like to try to edit the, what, 4, 5 threads on these recycled and original/rebuilt guitar Leslie's (including links to the original threads?) into 1 source of info (like Tubenit does so well) and put it in the Archives of Favorites.

http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=16136.0

Brad

Willabe · « **Reply #18 on:** July 07, 2014, 07:48:45 pm »

Thanks Gabe,

I found your thread that you originally posted and saw that. Now I get it.

Is the motor mount that's attached to the baffle (yellow/gold color) original or did you make that or modify/buy something to use?

Also I've never seen the 3 rod/tripod mounting bracket for the drum that yours has. I'm guessing it a latter Leslie co. design? Or did you make it? It looks very stable, maybe more stable then the original Leslie flat bar/2 point mounting bracket.

(BTW, please forgive me as I'm a terrible speller and spell check is not responding 1 way or the other. Is it Gab or Gabe that's short for Gabriel?)

Thanks, Brad

G._Hoffman · « **Reply #19 on:** July 07, 2014, 07:51:53 pm »

Quote from: Willabe on July 07, 2014, 07:48:45 pm

Thanks Gabe,

I found your thread that you originally posted and saw that. Now I get it.

(BTW, please forgive me as I'm a terrible speller and spell check is not responding 1 way or the other. Is it Gab or Gabe that's short for Gabriel?)

Thanks, Brad

Well, I prefer Gabriel, but the short for it is usually Gabe.

Gabriel

Willabe · « **Reply #20 on:** July 07, 2014, 08:02:55 pm »

Quote from: G._Hoffman on July 07, 2014, 07:51:53 pm

Well, I prefer Gabriel, but the short for it is usually Gabe.

Well, then Gabriel it is!

(I'm William Bradley and I go by Brad, but I like William, or Will, or Willy and not Bill, which is what the police ALWAYS call me, drivers licenses well the few times I've been pulled over.

And yes it's only been a few times in 55 years (-16 before a drivers licenses) in Chgo and its near suburbs.

)

BTW, please go back and look at the questions I added to reply #18, sorry about that.

Brad

TIMBO · « **Reply #21 on:** July 09, 2014, 01:23:31 am »

Hi guys, Sluckey, my intentions of having the second relay is to turn the relays off completely via the foot switch. I thought that when you said that I only needed one relay I was on a winner as space in the control box is small. I had seen that the fender/leslie used one relay but no on/off.

With the on/off this way I can have it connected to its own amp and using an AB/Y switch on the guitar signal,this allows the guitar split between amps and the tremolo effect be turn on/off when needed.

I trimmed down the PSU as I can get the 12vdc relays from the local shop but they don't have AC relays. Thanks

G._Hoffman · « **Reply #22 on:** July 11, 2014, 12:21:54 am »

Quote from: Willabe on July 07, 2014, 07:48:45 pm

Is the motor mount that's attached to the baffle (yellow/gold color) original or did you make that or modify/buy something to use?

Also I've never seen the 3 rod/tripod mounting bracket for the drum that yours has. I'm guessing it a latter Leslie co. design? Or did you make it? It looks very stable, maybe more stable then the original Leslie flat bar/2 point mounting bracket.

Ooops! Sorry, guess I missed that.

Everything but the baffle is original, and I just copied the pattern of holes for the mechanism. I don't know when it was made, but given that it came with a single speed motor, I think we can safely assume it is from a lower cost organ.

Gabriel

TIMBO · « **Reply #23 on:** July 12, 2014, 06:13:38 pm »

Hi guys, some progress with the control box and footswitch. Relays work well and the on/off switch is doing the job.

I have snubbers across the motor contacts but they seem to be letting AC through as there is no break when the relay is on or off. Thanks

TIMBO · « **Reply #24 on:** July 14, 2014, 12:37:41 am »

I'll retract that last post, as I was testing the circuit without it connected to the motors and with each motor connected to there relay she works a treat

TIMBO · « **Reply #25 on:** July 16, 2014, 04:45:12 am »

Hi guys, Control box and footswitch completed and working GREAT.

sluckey · « **Reply #26 on:** July 16, 2014, 05:26:09 am »

Really nice work Timbo. You're making me want one!

TIMBO · « **Reply #27 on:** July 17, 2014, 02:57:44 am »

Thanks Sluckey, I need to get a new speaker as the original 8" was a cheap jap job with a hole in it. I not sure if I need to do a crossover as I think the speaker range these days I'm sure I should be able to find something that will have good mid-upper range frequencies.Thanks

TIMBO · « **Reply #28 on:** July 19, 2014, 04:06:41 pm »

Hi guys, The Weber California 10 looks to be the replacement speaker of choice, but unfortunately they are a bit expensive and I am not able to buy locally and the add shipping is a killer. I have used the Jensen mods and they are great for an allround speaker.

I found this http://www.jensentone.com/mod_series/mod_10_70 at tubes and more for $40 as they are B-stock plus shipping was still cheaper than anything I can get local.

I'll install it and see if it requires a crossover.Thanks

sluckey · « **Reply #29 on:** July 30, 2014, 01:43:47 pm »

Hey Timbo, any updates?

TIMBO · « **Reply #30 on:** July 30, 2014, 02:10:59 pm »

Hey Sluckey, Just waiting for parts, Tolex turned up during the week so this is the first job for the weekend and hopefully the speaker will turn up soon. This is the problem of living on a big island, as there is limited suppliers of this stuff and it is very expensive. I bought a used speaker from Tubes and More for $40 bucks and delivery $65 and over a week wait. Thanks

TIMBO · « **Reply #31 on:** August 05, 2014, 01:00:28 am »

Partz.......................................still waiting

TIMBO · « **Reply #32 on:** August 05, 2014, 04:17:37 am »

A little progress....................

TIMBO · « **Reply #33 on:** August 05, 2014, 04:19:20 am »

sluckey · « **Reply #34 on:** August 05, 2014, 01:51:49 pm »

Looking sharp Timbo!

I couldn't stand it any longer so I picked up one of the cheaper units from eBay. It's like the unit that Gabriel has except it has a two speed motor unit. Sound pretty good even with the stock 8" speaker. I may put a 12" in it though. Still thinking about how I will house it. I definitely does the Leslie sound better than my Warbler.

TIMBO · « **Reply #35 on:** August 05, 2014, 02:09:04 pm »

COOL

TIMBO · « **Reply #36 on:** August 11, 2014, 03:18:48 am »

Speaker has arrived.................

The vibratone/Leslie look to have a fully closed back, but I would think that this would generate too much BASS and which would make it hard to cut through a mix.
I have seen some with a opening across the cab just where the control box sits and I can see that this would help with the mids and highs.

TIMBO · « **Reply #37 on:** August 14, 2014, 04:01:24 am »

Some investigation has it as a fully closed back even though there is an opening across the back.
I opted to have an opening at the bottom that will act as a port but if this doesn't achieve anything I will box it out and use it as a storage pocket for the lead and footswitch.
I have an 8ohm speaker and I have been trying to think how I need to set up the amp connection.
Do I just mark the socket 8ohm as this would be plugged into a dedicated amp that has an AB/Y to another amp at the amps inputs.
Make a split connection that is marked with a 4ohm jack that has a parallel split to two 8ohm cabs
OR...............

Willabe · « **Reply #38 on:** August 14, 2014, 08:18:55 am »

Timbo, looking real good!!!!!

I had 1 of the Fender Vibrotone's and pulled a drum unit out of an old SS Hammond organ both had a paper type of insolation stapled tightly around the back of the speaker.

I think they wanted all the sound to be modulated by the drum for full effect? Any sound coming off the back wave of the speaker won't be effected by the drum.

But who knows maybe your on to a good option?

Brad

TIMBO · « **Reply #39 on:** August 14, 2014, 02:15:52 pm »

Hey Brad, This had the same paper insulation, so I was thinking I would do something similar. I was planning a sound sample this weekend.

TIMBO · « **Reply #40 on:** August 15, 2014, 08:46:00 pm »

Hi guys, This one is just about done, put the finishing touches on and it looks great.

After some searching it seems that a dedicated amp is a better setup for sound and tone.

The original hookup for the speakers has a 200uf in series with the speaker. I have not put this in as yet but will try it for sound.Thanks

sluckey · « **Reply #41 on:** August 16, 2014, 06:11:52 am »

Quote

The original hookup for the speakers has a 200uf in series with the speaker. I have not put this in as yet but will try it for sound.

That 200�F cap is the mid/hi freq part of the crossover network for the original Vibratone 16/18. The low freq part of the crossover is in the dongle part of the connecter. Basically the crossover allows the speaker in the Vibratone to reproduce the mids and highs while allowing the speaker in the main amp to reproduce only lows. When the Vibratone is switched off, the speaker inside the Vibratone is disconnected and the low freq part of the crossover is shorted out (bypassed) allowing the speaker in the main amp to reproduce the full spectrum of the main amp.

I've been running my little Leslie directly from my main amp without any crossover. IOW, it acts just like an external speaker cab. I replaced the 8" speaker in my unit with a full range 12" Weber California. I like the full range sound. I don't think you'll need/want that 200�F cap unless you will be using the other part of the crossover.

TIMBO · « **Reply #42 on:** August 16, 2014, 03:12:45 pm »

Hey Sluckey, gave it a blast with my limited axe work and its an amazing effect.

I think the MOD is a good all rounder and does a great job with out any filtering.

The one thing that a lot of user were saying is that they don't work that well as a normal speaker cab, but this DOES a pretty good job with out being too muffled. I would think that if it were mic'd it up through a house PA I would think it would work just as good as standard speaker.

TIMBO · « **Reply #43 on:** August 17, 2014, 02:31:01 am »

Hi guys, Its now in the hands of the Hudson Wilde boys to do some magic. We had a play around with setting a mic up but they just don't do it justice.

It seems that having a couple of mic's is the way to go, so I left it with them.

I hope to have some clips soon. Thanks

sluckey · « **Reply #44 on:** August 17, 2014, 10:18:40 am »

That looks incredible Timbo! The slant face cab really kicks it up a notch too.

kagliostro · « **Reply #45 on:** August 20, 2014, 08:18:16 pm »

Very nice job TIMBO

Franco

TIMBO · « **Reply #46 on:** August 21, 2014, 03:12:42 am »

Thanks K

TIMBO · « **Reply #47 on:** August 28, 2014, 03:42:48 am »

Hey guys, The wait is over.......................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_gALUsuv2U&feature=youtu.be

shortfuse · « **Reply #48 on:** September 03, 2014, 11:40:00 am »

Timbo didn't even see yours before Steves very cool and great job

I will have to stick this one on the bucket list.

jeff · « **Reply #49 on:** November 01, 2014, 01:26:44 pm »

VERY cool.

When you use this, is this the only speaker connected to the amp?

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Author Topic: Vibratone/Leslie build (Read 28725 times)