Wall of Death Vintage Motordrone Bikes and Vintage Rat Bikes

[Platefire]

It's been years since I rode a motorcycle. I have seen a few old Rat bikes lately and think they are the coolest! It reminds me when I use to go to the State Fair and they would have the Wall of Death where they would ride bikes in that wooden bowl(coffee cup) and defy gravity. Those were the coolest bikes ever--stripped down to the bone and Loud!!! Anybody else out there remembers the "Wall of Death" and love cool old Rat Bikes? Platefire

Here is a link to some good shots:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Vintage+Wall+Of+Death+Circus+Bikes&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=np&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=B8n2U8adFI_9yQSEnICoBw&ved=0CCgQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=619

[PRR]

> remembers the "Wall of Death"

There's only been a few guys ever did that... owning and transporting the cage is too darn hard. Pretty much one guy 1950-1990, Lucky Thibeault.

[PRR]

Article in Classic Cycle Review May 1991

Part one of two to evade forum limits (sorry Doug!).

[PRR]

Part two of two.

[DummyLoad]

i love vintage bikes, new bikes, all motorcycles generally speaking. currently i own and ride a moto-guzzi v11 tenni. looking for a H-D dyna to chop up into a cafe class bar-hopper.


"wall of death" is still a popular sideshow it seems... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNM9GFV9adg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H4jUptw4Vk


--pete

[Jack_Hester]

looking for a H-D dyna to chop up into a cafe class bar-hopper.

If you can live without tremendous torque, build yourself one around a little Flathead 45 H-D.  Their most under-powered V-twin produced.  But, very easy to start and killer reliable.  3-speed, or 3-speed & reverse (if you use the ServiCar tranny).  Manual spark, hand-shift/foot-clutch.  For riding around town, gear it like the ServiCar.  45 mph max.  Or, gear it for the highway.  55 - 60 mph (70, going downhill). 

Very low compression, but can be 'hopped-up' by installing K-model pistons and relieving the combustion chambers a bit.  Piston sticks up about 1/16" above the deck.  Warm up is a necessity on this mod, as to not blow a head gasket. 

Ten zillion parts still available, and new parts still being produced in Europe.  I haven't checked in awhile, but at one time you could build an entire machine and never use an original part.  The European parts are higher quality than the original war production.

Just a thought.

Jack

[Platefire]

Yeah!

[Platefire]

The depth of "Rat" is off the scale on this one!

[DummyLoad]

 


a man here in austin has a WL in similar configuration...well maybe not quite as bad. 


jack, i want power. lot's of it. i want handling. i want fully adjustable inverted front forks with ~1Kg/mm springs, 320mm dual front disks with 4 piston calipers, 180mm rear disk, gas cartridge adjustable rear shocks (read: ohlens shocks), with a 180-190 rear tire and 18" wheels front and rear, 6 speed trans, and 113 inch mill running 10:5 compression with fuel injection, carbon-fiber fenders, aluminum gas tank and rear section, stripped of any thing else that isn't needed, no speedo, no tach, and just a rev limiter.

i want to get from from bar to bar moto-rapidus with sparks flying off pegs and tailpipes. you see, there can be great distances between bars in there parts of the USA.

--pete

[Platefire]

I been searching for a Rat of Gold, and I'm getting Old!

[Jack_Hester]

jack, i want power. lot's of it. i want handling. i want fully adjustable inverted front forks with ~1Kg/mm springs, 320mm dual front disks with 4 piston calipers, 180mm rear disk, gas cartridge adjustable rear shocks (read: ohlens shocks), with a 180-190 rear tire and 18" wheels front and rear, 6 speed trans, and 113 inch mill running 10:5 compression with fuel injection, carbon-fiber fenders, aluminum gas tank and rear section, stripped of any thing else that isn't needed, no speedo, no tach, and just a rev limiter.

i want to get from from bar to bar moto-rapidus with sparks flying off pegs and tailpipes. you see, there can be great distances between bars in there parts of the USA.

--pete

Can't say that I blame you.  I'm rather tame, these days.  But, I had a real passion for land speed racing, 'back in the day'. 



This Shovel is only 93 cu-in's, but when I built the bike ('76-'77), it was a big inch engine.  Hilborn Fuel Injection.  Transmission was the oil tank for both it and the engine.  Methanol - 13:1 static compression, but reduced to somewhere around 11.5 to 12:1 with the cam.  John Harman dual-plugged my heads and made the dual-magneto cam cover.  He also built my frame.  Was a really nice guy, and very trusting.  Shipped the frame before even billing me. 

http://108.163.194.210/~dbbpcom/dbbp/coolest/harman/harman_11.html

Money and sponsors ran out before it could be finished.  So, it went into storage.  Over the years, the rear wheel and the front forks were sold off, to fund other projects. 

The closest I came to trying again was to build a high compression 45" WL engine and run a 'slow' mile at Maxton, NC.  The military finally closed the old airport down, to the land speed racers.  So, that one never made it past paper drawings, though I've got everything to build the engine and put a 4-speed big twin tranny behind it.  I'm not the first to do such, thank goodness.  So, I didn't have to re-invent the wheel on this one. 

Anyway, post whatever you build, and I will follow it closely.  Fine business!

Jack

[Platefire]

Pete and Jack

Can tell you are old Harley guys. Never got past Honda's myself. My first bike being a Allstate Moped:>)in the 60's.
If you now have a bike or some bikes, would love to see some pixs. Platefire

[Jack_Hester]

Here's my '76, not even a full month before I center-punched a minivan (01Sep04):



The bike's still totaled, but I have everything to make it whole again.  That is, assuming the frame is not warped.  To the eye, it doesn't appear to be.  I'll verify that when the frame is naked on the bench, level, and straight-lines have been pulled.  The picture was taken in front of a friend's home in Greenville, NC.  Mine is the black one.  His is the '74 Police Special that I sold him, back in about '80 or '81.

Here's a '37 Indian Scout that ran at Maxton, NC land speed races, in '07.  I believe that he ran 79 mph in the mile:



And, another from the same time:



'42 WLA.  He didn't race it.  Just tooled around the airport on it.  It had the same effect as the race bikes.

And, a nice Knucklehead from the '08 races, same place:



Not a bike picture, but one of a corner in my shop:



That's my frame jig, to the right.  It's still a virgin.  Look close.  The shop will never be this clean again.  I have antique, original Harley (and some Indian) tools hanging on the wall (I use/have used them), and stored in boxes (waiting for their time to be used).  In recent years, because of my work load, it's become a place of 'collection' and not work.  You can't see the top of the benches, or the tools on the wall.  Or even the frame jig, for the stuff that's piled up.  I still collect.  I foolishly think that I'll live forever, and get to it tomorrow. 

The Maxton pictures are mainly for 'Bobber' ideas.  And, as a bit of eye candy.

Jack

[Platefire]

Nice picture Jack. To bad about the accident. Hope you came out OK! Had a good friend center-punched a car when it pulled out it front of him. He went over the car on the pavement. By a miracle, he got up an walked away with only some scratches and bruises. He had had a bike and rode ever since I met him but after that, he hasn't rode again. After I retired in 2010, I learned that another guy I used to work with was dodging a deer crossing the road to cross lanes and hit a vehicle head on killing him instantly. I avoided having any bad accidents in my riding experiance but had some awful close calls. Anyway what a nice bike to be totaled out. Hope you can get it back together again soon. Thanks for sharing.

   I love old vintage bikes, even though I can't afford them. I really like that old 42 WLA in your post. Is that original paint? What a cool old bike. Would like to put-put around on that myself. I remember back in the 60's hearing rumors of old WWII bikes still existing in their original crates. Never seen one, but a nice thought! I have some pixs of an old barn fresh and restored Crockett's that is rare cool old bikes that I admire. My love for vintage bikes started when I happened on a bike show in a local Mall and saw a 1947 Harley---my birth year. It was a beauty and every since I've been eying vintage bikes.

  I envy you with that nice shop, I don't have one. If I had one like that, would probably live in it:>)--Amp and Bike projects is a good combination!

I don't know what it is but one of my favorite riding times in right at dusk just before dark. Something special about that time. I mostly ride a bicycle now days to try to get some exercise and help my health situation. However I still have my eye out for some old bike project I could pick up cheap and start working. Still have the desire to ride. Platefire



 

[DummyLoad]

nice bikes and shop jack. :-)


some of the rides i've owned over the last 14-15 years. missing is the 2000 softail.


the moto-guzzi V11 tenni - number 113 of 170 made in 2002. my current and only 2 wheeled ride at this time.





the triumph - speed triple fun bike! this one was a 2004 SE. triples howl like no other engine.





the aprilia falco - my favorite at the time. crashed it on the way back from laguna seca ca.





the H-D FXDX superglide sport - very fun bike. i rode this one to the H-D 100th anniversary pary in 2003. yeah, i packed like a woman and mailed clothes home via UPS. one of the few harley's made that had tunable suspension. i installed race-tech springs and valves in the front forks. andrews cams, ported heads, 10.5:1 pitons. barnett clutch. bike was a bitch to clutch and ate starters. i miss that green hussy.   





--pete
 

[Jack_Hester]

Nice picture Jack. To bad about the accident. Hope you came out OK! Had a good friend center-punched a car when it pulled out it front of him. He went over the car on the pavement. By a miracle, he got up an walked away with only some scratches and bruises. He had had a bike and rode ever since I met him but after that, he hasn't rode again. After I retired in 2010, I learned that another guy I used to work with was dodging a deer crossing the road to cross lanes and hit a vehicle head on killing him instantly. I avoided having any bad accidents in my riding experiance but had some awful close calls. Anyway what a nice bike to be totaled out. Hope you can get it back together again soon. Thanks for sharing.

   I love old vintage bikes, even though I can't afford them. I really like that old 42 WLA in your post. Is that original paint? What a cool old bike. Would like to put-put around on that myself. I remember back in the 60's hearing rumors of old WWII bikes still existing in their original crates. Never seen one, but a nice thought! I have some pixs of an old barn fresh and restored Crockett's that is rare cool old bikes that I admire. My love for vintage bikes started when I happened on a bike show in a local Mall and saw a 1947 Harley---my birth year. It was a beauty and every since I've been eying vintage bikes.

  I envy you with that nice shop, I don't have one. If I had one like that, would probably live in it:>)--Amp and Bike projects is a good combination!

I don't know what it is but one of my favorite riding times in right at dusk just before dark. Something special about that time. I mostly ride a bicycle now days to try to get some exercise and help my health situation. However I still have my eye out for some old bike project I could pick up cheap and start working. Still have the desire to ride. Platefire

As to the '76, it can most certainly be rebuilt to new running condition.  However, when that time comes (and I hope it's soon), it will be put back together like it looked in the picture.  Comes from doing restorations where original, barn fresh look preserves the value.  Not interested in what it's worth.  Just that it continues to look as it has for all those cross-country trips. 

As to affording, you can do so with a WL/WLA.  One part at a time.  Build an engine.  Transmission.  Put it in a frame.  Tie it together with the primary drive.  Wheels.  Sheet metal (as the fenders, tanks, etc. are called), electrics.  Doesn't hurt the wallet nearly as bad that way.  Lots of swapmeets and elbow grease.  That is, if you are mechanically inclined, or willing to be so.  The beauty of the build is that you know it like it was a body part of your own. 

Again, it's the most underpowered production V-twin that Harley made.  But, it will take you anywhere and bring you home.  I've been running all my machines on synthetics, since the early to mid 80's.  60W synthetic will keep the engine slick and quiet, though there's no oil filter.  The little scavenger pump doesn't have big enough gears to push oil through a filter.  However, it's easy to build an oil flush system complete with filter, that will clean your oil of soot and other contaminants.  Just hook it up and let it circulate the oil out of the tank drain, though the filter(s), and back in.  You may not be getting every drop from the engine, but it will have a fresh drink to run on the next time. 

The shop ain't nice anymore.  I caught it on a rare 'cleaner than usual' day.  I enjoy looking at that picture. 

Your riding time agrees with mine.  I live out in the country, and backroads at suppertime are the best.  Just you and the critters.  45 mph, so that I can see the countryside and still be safe.

Go to Asheboro, NC, to this museum/bike shop:

https://www.facebook.com/ACMMofAsheboro

Ed Rich has some of the most beautiful old bikes in his museum, most unrestored.  And, it's free.  Good hamburgers in his cafe.

Jack

[Platefire]

Jack

Thanks for the info on the Motorcycle Museum. Got a Daughter that lives in Fayettville NC we go see pretty often. That's not too far from Asheboro---say about 60 miles. Next time I go there, that will be on my agenda. Me and the wife love old fashion type Hamburgers and fries. We're always trying to find a place that makes them the old way--kinda hard to find these days--so we make them occasionally at the house.

We live in the country too and when I first moved here I had access to all the back roads and did a lot of riding through the backwoods. When the timber companies started leasing land to these hunting clubs, they started putting locked gates on all the back roads. So most of my riding roads previously used were then blocked. With all my riding roads blocked and my bikes not being street legal, I got rid of them. Also I have two state troopers living on my road and I got called down once trying to make it from my house to the back road entrance that required me to travel about 1/2 mile on the main road to get there. So if I put together another bike someday, it will have to be street legal.

Pete---Nice bikes that passed through your hands last few years. They look like hot machines! You must ride pretty often and the moto-guzzi looks great. Thanks for sharing your bike pictures. 

BTW-This is my current two wheel ride at the time:>)

[Platefire]

I like it!

[DummyLoad]

I like it!

nice ride.


you gonna pull the trigger on her?


--pete

[Platefire]

Well I don't think a bike like that would be street legal, would it? Don't see no blinkers or license plate. I like those stripped down bobbers like that with just a medium size motor. What is the minimum you have to have to be street legal?

[PRR]

> What is the minimum you have to have to be street legal?

Different in every state.

In NJ, if you had lights, they had to work, and not be cracked or discolored.

However I just took the turn-signals off my BSA and that was fine.

In Maine, the rules are lengthy and open to debate. You should probably ask the guy who will do your Inspection. I need separate front and rear brakes (or ABS), no damage to the cable housings, ample free-play, and effective stopping (internal inspection not required; the inspector can just fail dubious brakes). Tail-light visible from 100 feet. If over 5HP I need hi/lo headlight. Turn-signals must work if present, but I don't see where you are required to have turn-signals.

Anyway it isn't hard to add turn-signals. At least to get past Inspection. Recently I've done rear left/right on a 1941 Plymouth and 4-ways on a tractor. It is harder than wiring a guitar-cord, much easier than building a guitar-amp.

There's "stealth" turn signals, LED, very small.

Oh, and in Maine I must have fenders which cover the width of the tire, 1/4 of the way around, aimed to protect the rider, not cracked or loose. (So that Bobber6 would need a temporary fender or an extra $10 bribe for day-of-Inspection.)

[Jack_Hester]

This is much like a nice little street bobber that I'd like to build.  I have most of everything to do so, minus a frame.  I don't want to use my 42 WLA frame, as that's a separate project. 

The parts that I have on hand are for a small land speed racer, but (as stated previously) they closed our track, here in N.C..  So now, I'm thinking a nice little street machine.  Unless we get another track somewhere within a days drive of my home.  I don't do much long distance travel anymore.  And Laurinburg, NC (10 minutes from Maxton) was only 2-1/2 hours from me.  They had a class for any racer that you brought, fast or slow. 

Jack

[DummyLoad]

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/vi/inspection/inspectionCriteria.aspx


yee haw!


--pete

[DummyLoad]

This is much like a nice little street bobber that I'd like to build.  I have most of everything to do so, minus a frame.  I don't want to use my 42 WLA frame, as that's a separate project. 

The parts that I have on hand are for a small land speed racer, but (as stated previously) they closed our track, here in N.C..  So now, I'm thinking a nice little street machine.  Unless we get another track somewhere within a days drive of my home.  I don't do much long distance travel anymore.  And Laurinburg, NC (10 minutes from Maxton) was only 2-1/2 hours from me.  They had a class for any racer that you brought, fast or slow. 

Jack

build it! :) 


--pete

[Jack_Hester]

build it! :) 


--pete

The LSR engine that I had planned for mine was very basic, and stock, with two exceptions.  I have K-Model pistons, which extend 1/8" or so above the deck.  The top compression ring would be about 1/16" below deck, cold.  The heads would have to be relieved, to allow for this.  But, rather than be 6:1 compression (stock), I would have somewhere in the ball park of 8:1.  Very normal for most OHV engines.  Some high, for Flatheads.  My goal was to beat the two other competitors on the track, who averaged 75 to 80 mph in the mile.  A fairly good feat, for this class. 
 
If that one had come to pass, it would have been in a custom frame with a Big Twin 4-speed behind it.  Harley made sprockets and clutch shells for the original WR's to use the large double-row primary chains.  I have a number of the WR engine sprockets, and with the BT 4-speed clutch, that would have been a breeze.  The extra gear would have given me an edge.  Enough torque to get me to 4th gear with enough left in 4th to maybe carry me over the 80 mph mark. 
 
As a street machine, I would use a 45 frame and 3-speed hand-shift tranny.  A little engine built in this manner would allow for easy interstate speeds, though I would stick to the secondary roads.  The vane oil pump can only deliver so much flow/pressure.  Gearing would allow for maybe 65 mph, tops.  But, 55 would be very light. 
 
Jack

[Jack_Hester]

Wrote this over a couple of years (5 races per year), though not necessarily each race.  Nor, was I able to attend all races.  I could sit trackside in the pit area, under my beach umbrella, and do my research and write very small programs.  Then, combine them all into one.  I watched and listened to the high-dollar, high-tech race teams and put the highlights in this little program.  All the math behind the different calculations is easy to find.  The gear ratio math was fairly cut-and-dried.

Jack

Note: Got the correct program uploaded.

[Platefire]

Jack if you built one to match the picture that would be one cool bike. So that's a flat-head with side shift lever? Haft to say it would take an experienced rider to handle the clutching and shifting and not get in a bind in traffic.

According to PRR if I'm reading things right, much not need a whole lot to make a bike street legal--good lights, breaks, some fenders and blinkers if required. I would like to see a pix of PRR's BSA--When I was a draftman for Nabors Trailers years ago the chief engineer had an old BSA that I thought was a cool bike. 

Just for grins, have you ever seen a pix of this old steam bike----hot ride!

[PRR]

> pix of PRR's BSA

The only groovy thing was someone had painted the tank as a Union Jack.

Memory dims. Maybe a 1972? In any case, BSA's best days were long in the past. This was an ordinary englishman's 250cc go-to-work machine, ran like a lawnmower, but with high pipe and knobby tires, pretending to be a Dirt Bike. Had been owned by several teenagers, had issues. Then things got worse.

I hurt my back and couldn't ride. My leather jacket got stolen, with the papers in the pocket. After a few years I felt better, but couldn't get paper from the state and couldn't get oil-pressure on the engine (a common failing). So it sat.

Then my cousin-in-law visited. He had a big barn out in the Pennsylvania woods full of other classic motors being restored. He had a Norton 750. I dunno why he'd want my mundane 250, but he did, and forced $20 in my hand. He got it running good and started the process to get a salvage title.

The next year the barn burned down. 1953 Cadillac, 1963 Falcon gasser dragster, others, all melted. And my BSA. He apologized profusely, but I said he'd paid fairly, and the BSA was the least of his loss.

[Platefire]

PRR----Thanks for sharing your BSA story. May your BSA RIP! I'm ashamed to reveal my bikes after seeing pictures and stories of everybody else bikes. The first bike I bought was Allstate Moped for $17 in pieces when I was a teenager. I somehow thought I could put it back together and somehow get it going but I couldn't. Too many missing parts and destroyed parts. Latter I worked hard mowing yards in the summertime and saved up $50.00 and bought a running Allstate Moped(Puch of Austria, 49cc) in pretty good shape. It was the same model as the bike I bought in parts for $17, so I then had some extra parts. The running one ran good but was weak due to low compression. I ordered a new cylinder complete with new piston and rings. Cost was only $16 then from Sears. Man, that made a difference--it ran great then. I rode that moped for several years. I even picked up another one of the same models in running condition for $20 that I used for parts. That was about 1965. Latter I got married and sold all that. Didn't ride for years until the 80's when I moved close to my Nephew who bought, sold and repaired motorcycles. I ended up trading him a 76 Pinto for a Honda 100 trail bike. My Son also bought a Honda 125 TL125 from him that I latter bought from my Son. The TL125 was no doubt the coolest of the bunch. It was known as a Mountain bike and had a real low 1st gear. I did a lot of backwoods riding on the 100 and 125 for about 10 years---much fun. Got rid of those in the late 90's. I've attached a picture of what the Allstate Moped looked like and also the TL125. These are not pictures of the one's I owned but just identical look-alike borrowed off the net. One thing about it, no matter what level biker you are--it kind of gets in your blood and don't go away easy! I know this is pitiful compared to you big HD and Motor Guzzi bike guys but I can at least admire you guys bikes. Platefire

[DummyLoad]

my first scoot... 4HP side-shaft tecumseh lawnmower plant, bypassed governor. john-e-law killed the party one too many times and mom sold it. i was around 13. mine was a 73 model - pic is a 70 - they didn't change, mine was blue. pipe under seat got hot. i had to stop every so often and let butt cool off. no gears, just twist and go. brakes were well...let's just say sometimes i stopped by hopping off. damn thing rattled your teeth, but at that age you don't care. helmet? what @#$^ helmet? it was the 70's man!

--pete

[Platefire]

  Nice scooter. At least you didn't have to mix oil and gas at every fill up. Yep, at that age you just want some wheels with a motor on it--not paticular at all. My mouth would drool around my little home town to see the rich kids with their Cushman scooters. No problem with john-e-law in the 60's with my moped. I went everywhere on all the main roads and was never stopped. I guess nothing was required in those days for a moped?

Side Story: I only recall one guy in town having a Harley and I witnessed that Harley burn up before my very eyes. I was at a local gas station getting a coke and candy bar when he pulled up for gas. This was in the days that the station pumped the gas and the owners young son pumped the gas. The Harley owner insisted leaving the motor running because it was hard to crank. Bad move! When the boy topped off the tank he spilled some gas that hit the motor, it flashed up in flames, everybody jumped back and it went up in flames right beside the pumps. I don't recall any fine extinguisher being used. It was just a charred mess on the pavement when it was done. What a waste! 

Many people around my area had NSU mopeds and motorcycles in that day because there was a NSU dealer in the next small town 10 miles away. I think those were import bikes like my moped. Platefire

[Jack_Hester]

Jack if you built one to match the picture that would be one cool bike. So that's a flat-head with side shift lever? Haft to say it would take an experienced rider to handle the clutching and shifting and not get in a bind in traffic.

You'd be surprised at how easy it comes to you.  Though I haven't ridden a hand-shifter in many years, I would always shift into neutral before coming to a stop.  You can set the spring-loaded clutch rocker to allow the clutch to stay disengaged.  But, don't trust it.  Always have good front brakes for stopping on hills.  You spend a lot of stopped time with your right leg as support. 

On the bike that I have pictured, right-hand throttle, left-hand spark advance, left-hand shift.  Harley ServiCars and the majority of old Indians have a left-hand throttle, right-hand shift and spark advance.  It only takes a few miles to acclimate to the difference. 

And, you will love the manual spark advance.  The smartest spark control, ever, is your brain.  If you don't want to shift down, because you are having to slow a bit, role the spark away (retard it a bit) and the engine will begin to pull strong and the deep sound is great.  Even on the highly muffled machines. 

Something else that people no longer realize about the fishtailed mufflers of the time.  The muffler is small, as it only has the basic of steel baffles.  But, the fishtail takes it from there.  You can tweak the opening (tighter or more open) to get the desired sound that you require.  A dying pleasure that only a few enjoy. 

Jack

[PRR]

Before that BSA...

My girlfriend took me to the Honda shop. She had already bought a machine for me. A Honda 50cc no-ped. Looked a lot like a moped, no shift, 27mph tops, but no pedals, thus I had to have a motocycle license. (And helmet-- Bell full-face.) I took the test on the no-ped, which upset the Inspector. Who rode here with you? Nobody, I had it in my station wagon. Demonstrate gear-shift. And the part that always tripped-up the Harley novices: ride a figure-8 without dropping a foot. Piece of cake on the no-ped.

The guy advised me to learn shifting before going out on a Real Motorcycle, and gave me the license.

I rode it to work a few times, but it absolutely would not hit 28mph. It was clearly designed to load-up and go no faster. I bet the intake from a real Honda 50 would have fixed that, but with one gear it wasn't going to do 35mph for long.

Hence when the guy at work said he had a 250 with FOUR gears, I did the deal.

I don't remember what happened to the 50cc no-ped. It is apparently somewhat rare now (I wonder why). 10 years later they released a machine with about the same engine, un-lamed, and five gears, would touch highway speeds.... that sold OK.

[Platefire]

Jack

   I attached a pix of a 48 HD because it shows the shifter and clutch. Never knew they had spark advance on those. I see the clutch and shifter---where is the spark advance control located? Bike shown is suppose to be a fresh barn find. Also I was wondering how you would shift with the clutch engaged continuously? do you just jump the gears without the clutch? Also first time I ever heard you could tune your motor tone by adjusting the muffler baffle. A lot to play with and think about as your going down the road. To me these old vintage bikes are just so much more interesting than these modern marvels. Of course I would take one if it was given to me but if I was going to lay my money down, it would be vintage. To buy vintage now days without spending a fortune, it would have to be in poor shape and even then it would be pretty steep. BTW-what year did HD go to a foot shifter ?

PRR

Never heard the term no-ped before until now. Had to look that up and found it's pretty much the same thing but without the pedals. I guess that what kept me from getting in trouble with the law driving the main roads--I had pedals--so it was considered a motorized bicycle. I had a friend that got the Honda 50 with four or five gears(can't remember). I got to ride it quiet a few times and as I recall that thing moved out pretty good for a 50cc. I sold my moped for $20 and he rode it off never to be seen again. I guess you was in high cotton with your 250 with four speeds--Quiet a jump from the no-ped! Nothing like them old bike memories:>)

Platefire   

[Jack_Hester]

Jack

   I attached a pix of a 48 HD because it shows the shifter and clutch. Never knew they had spark advance on those. I see the clutch and shifter---where is the spark advance control located? Bike shown is suppose to be a fresh barn find. Also I was wondering how you would shift with the clutch engaged continuously? do you just jump the gears without the clutch? Also first time I ever heard you could tune your motor tone by adjusting the muffler baffle. A lot to play with and think about as your going down the road. To me these old vintage bikes are just so much more interesting than these modern marvels. Of course I would take one if it was given to me but if I was going to lay my money down, it would be vintage. To buy vintage now days without spending a fortune, it would have to be in poor shape and even then it would be pretty steep. BTW-what year did HD go to a foot shifter ?
Platefire

The spark advance is in the grip on the left handlebar, unless you were on a ServiCar (Police/Military tricycle) that had one on the right side, throttle on left.  You roll it like the throttle.  Away from you, retard the spark.  Towards you, advance the spark. 

No, you don't shift with it engaged continuously.  That being said, if you were Flattrack racing, you could 'jam' the gears, by changing your rpm's to make the shift happen, and not touch the clutch.  You also had someone (or did it yourself) to build/rebuild your transmission as needed. 

You rotate the foot rocker to engage and disengage.  I set them to stay where you leave it, though it's a tricky balance.  It's spring loaded and vibration can make it flip and engage, sending you right through an intersection.  That's why I would shift to neutral. 

I suppose that you could say that you are tuning the engine by tweaking the muffler.  Adjusting back pressure.  Actually, I only did if for the sound.  Not too loud, as to get a ticket in town.  But, just loud enough to hear the tone, as it was out behind you.  You don't want it too quiet. 

And, really it's not a lot to play with.  It's all by feel.  How strong is the engine pulling?  Do I really want to shift down, when I'm only going to be at 35 mph for a minute or so. 

I used to ride down Main Street in Roxboro (small town, for sure).  Keep it in 4th gear (high) and roll the spark down a bit.  Then, listen to the echo off the buildings.  People would stop and look, even before I got to them.  Most smiled.  It wasn't loud.  Just steady and deep.  Potato-potato-potato-potato.  Only comes from hemi-heads.  The later wedge-head, automotive style engines ('84 Evo's and later) can't potato. 

Foot shifters became available in '52 on civilian models.  The M&P models still had hand-shifters.  Some say that the hand-shifter was still available as late as '74.  I don't remember for sure.  I believe that the hand-shifters dominated for quite a while, as people were buying those cheap at Police auctions. 

Jack

[Platefire]

Jack

Thanks for sharing your HD history knowledge. I've always admired Harleys from a distance but never had any close encounters with one. Like I said previouly, I never got the bug until I saw the 1947 Knuckelhead at a bike show in a mall. Of course 1947 was my birth year. I looked at some restored 47's on e-bay and the were 30K+. I'm sure an old beater would be half that much in bad shape. Pretty much ensures I will remain a distant admirer;>/

I liked your story about dragging down main street with the motor loaping low---I can truly see that. My home town Zwolle has those old fashion store front stores and I remember hearing that same kind of echo off the stores.

Attached is a pix of a 47. Was that model Knucklehead a pretty good engine? How did it stack up against the previous or latter models? Platefire

[PRR]

> considered a motorized bicycle

Right. Many states draw a distinction between Real motocycles and Motorized Bicycles. The line may be drawn at 25MPH, or at 50cc, but very often if it has pedals and clearly isn't a Real Motocycle, it can be driven with much less license.

I was in NJ and there a MoPed has to have pedals. The Honda Express didn't. I probably could have ridden forever without a license.... few cops would have noticed.

> the term no-ped before until now. Had to look that up

Didn't know it was a word. We just made it up. I guess it is obvious.

Memory is dim, but something like this, only blue, and probably a few years older.

Good machine if you are fine at 25MPH. Started E-Z, easy to lift into station wagon, comfy ride. It is in a long tradition of service Hondas, which were a bit bigger and used for fast-food delivery in Japan's cities. With the one gear and a reasonable top speed, you'd think the off-the-line acceleration would be modest, and it was; but in practice I'd have to feather it to not hit the car ahead of me at a stoplight.

Apparently people now cut these up into micro cafe racers.

Here is a same-guts different-seat model in "my" Blue. This has *TWO* gears!!
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=759843
His starting problem must be an old-age thing, mine always started. (One reason I got another Honda 30 years later, but one that sits two humans and a huge dog.)

Seems there are mods to get this guy up to *33* MPH. You can open-up the exhaust (like I thought) and you can put on a 70cc cylinder! Is that enough to ride with the Knuckleheads and Aprilias?
http://www.hondaexpressmoped.com/

[Jack_Hester]

Attached is a pix of a 47. Was that model Knucklehead a pretty good engine? How did it stack up against the previous or latter models? Platefire

Knuckleheads were great engines, but required a bit more attention.  The rocker covers were stamped metal plates that were held down with machine screws, to the heads.  A source of leaks, but can be sealed with modern sealers, and problems pretty much eliminated. 
 
Also, the overhead oiling worked fine, but the mineral-based oils of the time would cook in the heads, leaving a sludge.  Modern oils, particularily synthetics, eliminate this issue as well. 
 
They made a bunch of everything in '47.  I'm thinking that civilian goods production finally got back into full swing, since before the Depression.  So, there are lots of '47 Knucks, Indian Chiefs (I've got one of those as a basket case), etc.. 
 
One practice they made back then was to roll off the throttle, periodically, to create a vacuum in the exhaust rockerboxes, thus pulling lubrication down by the exhaust valve stems.  This was done if riding had been at a sustained highway speed.  Carbon buildup can be bad on exhaust valves, and because the exhaust ports are under a positive pressure, this carbon can work its way up into the guide/stem area. 
 
The next model was the Panhead, in '48.  Aluminum heads, as compared to the cast iron of the Knuckleheads.  Then, generator model Shovelheads in '67, followed by the alternator (cone) Shovelheads in '70.  Evo's came along in '84, but that's where my attention stopped.  I had already started my regression back to things older.  I had a passion for Flatheads, so I decided not to become involved with anything later than Shovels.  I've got several of the Flathead 45 Harley engines, and a couple bikes.  The Indian Chief is a big 74 cu-in Flathead, though they bumped that up to 80 cu-in's before they went under in '53. 
 
One machine that I always thought would fine to own is a Crocker.  Short lived, but an absolute engineering marvel:
 
http://www.crockermotorcycleco.com/
 
Read the biography of Al Crocker.  Then, read that of his partner.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bigsby
 
Jack

[Platefire]

PRR--Pretty cool having your girlfriend buy you a motor bike. When I had a Moped, I don't recall a single person in my area having a Honda. Like I said previously, mostly NSU's from a NSU dealer in the next town. My Moped was manual two speed shift on left side of handlebars with left clutch lever. Foot pedal rear break and right lever front break. I also has a decompression lever for killing the engine. My first experiance overhauling an engine was with this bike and also overhauled my best friends Allstate too. Traveled several times to the next town (11 miles) where the NSU dealership was at. Stayed on the shoulder most of the away between towns to stay out of the way of traffic. 

Jack

  Looked like modern technology helped the knucklehead issues. It does seem like some good bolts and nuts would have more appropriate than machine screws for the rocker covers. Was that actually a "back fire" they used for the negative pressue to clean/lubricate the valves? I remember I use to create a backfire from my old flathead 53 ford by cutting off the key, giving it gas and turning the key back on. Don't know how good it was for that flathead though:>)

I've always heard reference to the knuckelhead, Panheads, and Shovelheads but didn't know what order they came in. So the flathead preceeded the knucklehead. Wow! You have a couple of Flatheads, that's like money in the bankor better! I know the stuff on American Pickers is staged but I love seeing those old bikes they have on there. No other bike stuff on TV that I have found. Would love to find a bike restoration channel!

I'm with you on the Crocker. I found a framed picture of a fully restored Crocker in Wal Mart years ago and bought it because I had never seen one before and thought it was Awesome. After getting the picture I did some research on history and found the history on the net. I latter found a picture of a barn fresh(un-restored) Crocker that was a cool picture. When I was working I had both pictures hanging on the wall of my office as a before/after restoration. Yep Bigsby is the same creator of early Electric guitars and the famous whammy bar. Cool guitars and motorcycles just go together period! Thanks again for sharing your knowledge. Platefire

[Jack_Hester]

  Looked like modern technology helped the knucklehead issues. It does seem like some good bolts and nuts would have more appropriate than machine screws for the rocker covers. Was that actually a "back fire" they used for the negative pressue to clean/lubricate the valves? I remember I use to create a backfire from my old flathead 53 ford by cutting off the key, giving it gas and turning the key back on. Don't know how good it was for that flathead though:>)

I've always heard reference to the knuckelhead, Panheads, and Shovelheads but didn't know what order they came in. So the flathead preceeded the knucklehead. Wow! You have a couple of Flatheads, that's like money in the bankor better! I know the stuff on American Pickers is staged but I love seeing those old bikes they have on there. No other bike stuff on TV that I have found. Would love to find a bike restoration channel!

Not to cause a backfire.  Ignition remains on, when you roll the throttle off.  And, the whole procedure only lasts for less than 30 seconds. 

Actually, Flatheads co-existed with the OHV models.  The last configuration of the 45 cu-in models ran from '29 until '73.  The Knuckleheads became the first modern, reliable OHV street model.  There were other OHV's before, but not considered the Big Twins like the fat, big inch Flathead Big Twins that were already on the road.

If you want to see one of the finest privately owned museums with old machines, and their surroundings, go to the Wheels Through Time Museum in Maggie Valley, NC.  Be sure to  have several hours to give it a good once over.  Be sure to go upstairs and see the WR's that I'm partial to.  Mighty fast small inch Flatheads.

Jack

[Platefire]

Had to check out the WR---not familiar with what that is. So doing a search on "Harley WR", I turned up this restored 1946 racing WR--see pix. How would you like to take your evening dusk ride on this. What a beauty! I like the appearance of the flathead in that is has a cleaner less cluttered look.
  I stopped by a pawn shop last week to look at the music stuff and they had a modern Harley right there parked close to the music section. Don't know what model it was but a lot of newer Harleys look like a Honda or Yamaha incarnation. The classic look is so much better and got me wondering does Harley make any classic re-issues of the originals like guitar companies do? Platefire

[Willabe]

Here's what I want.
 

                Brad     

[Jack_Hester]

The classic look is so much better and got me wondering does Harley make any classic re-issues of the originals like guitar companies do?

No 're-issue' models.  Some retro appearing, but all modern drive. 
 
The 'W' is the designation is for the 45 cu-in.  The 'R' is for the racing model.  If you see 'WL', that's the civilian model.  'WLA' is the Army/military.  'WLC' is the Canadian military model. 
 
All fine machines, but the WR is the hot model.  As the old folks used to say, 'they'll run like a striped ape', though I've never seen one of those run.  I hear that 'striped apes' are fast. 
 
Jack

[PRR]

> a lot of newer Harleys look like a Honda or Yamaha incarnation.

Not to mention the Honmahas that copy-cat the Harley.

Strangest one I saw.... clearly a Japanese copy of a H-D V-twin, but I'm walking around and around and I count four spark plugs. True, a V-twin can have two plugs per head. But a closer look found the siamesed in/exhaust porting. It was a v-FOUR packaged to look like a V-twin.

Anyway... after quite excellent Asian copy-cats, Harley's biggest competition is its own past. There is a very-ample supply of older Harleys, and people and part-suppliers to fix them up to any standard, beater to boutique. If you like the 1953, get on eBay or hang at the unofficial Harley shop until you get one.

> the WR--- the flathead in that is has a cleaner less cluttered look.

In cars, OHV designs of the 1920s yielded to flatheads in the 1930s. Not at Ford, but very notably at Packard. The flatties did look cleaner, and ran without valve-clatter. Riccardo's classic papers tell how to make a flathead run pretty good, better than many older OHV designs.

In early NASCAR the Hudson straight-Six flathead was very competitive with OHV V8s.

In a motorcycle a flattie saves a lot of vertical height. While the flathead lacks top-end power per cubic inch, with the slim head you can increase the stroke and the cubic inches and get power.

But there was a particular reason the WR roared into the 1960s. AMA was all Harley against Indian, then Harleys. Triumph came in with their silly foreign twins and mopped up. The reactionary AMA set displacement limits for OHV much lower than for flatheads, ensuring traditional All-American racing.

I got a big flat twin here. 650cc Briggs & Stratton. Boxer not Vee. Near as big as a WR, but manifolded like elbow macaroni, rated 17.5HP. Ran good while it ran, but 42 years of neglect caught up with it. (And if it were a Harley it would be well worth re-building... but it's a Craftsman lawn tractor with multiple drive/deck problems and no aftermarket support.)

[Platefire]

   I remember back in the 60's when I was driving my old 1953 Flathead ford there was a saying going around from hot rodders "Flatheads Forever". The next year 1954 Ford went to overhead valve V8 and flatheads were out except to the diehards. I think chevy had been using OHVs' for a while in 54. Back in those days I could tell you every model car on site but now days I couldn't tell you diddiley.
   Regarding Harley, I know a lot of the newer stuff is more efficient and stable than a lot of the old vintage stuff but at the same time for those old *%$#@ like us that love vintage and are DIY'er, the vintage is more manageable to work on I think. Seems like there would be a true market for the most popular models with a authentic RI. Truthfully though they would probably have it priced higher than restored vintage! If I did have a Harley, I would surely want to be able to work on it myself. Platefire

[PRR]

> "Flatheads Forever". The next year 1954 Ford went to overhead valve V8 and flatheads were out except to the diehards. I think chevy had been using OHVs' for a while in 54.

Plymouth ran their 1928 Flathead Six into 1960 in cars; well into the 1980s in other applications. Dad's 1961 Rambler was still flathead.

The game-changer was the Rocket Olds; the Cadillac OHV V-8 beat it by a few months. Bam, everybody copied it/them. Studebaker so close that some Caddy parts fit. Ford copied badly; improved when Ford hired the ex-Hudson engineers. In hot-rodding it took a few years of high-price Caddy and Olds before the Chevy V-8 became common hot-rod fodder.

Chevrolet was OHV for a long time. The 1914 model, and especially the 1929 "Stovebolt" which ended Ford's dominance of the low-price car segment.

If you are not under a displacement limit, and don't have real high Octane fuel, a flathead is an excellent engine.

> a authentic RI

The market has changed so much, that I don't think they could come close to "authentic" and sell enough to cover cost. Smog and noise regulations may require un-authenticity.

It's not a problem. eBay Motors today shows a couple of apparently genuine 1947 WL in the $7K area. As a near-new large bike will cost $10K-$20K, $7K leaves room for whatever repairs are needed now and a start on future repair costs. I'm sure that long-term the parts for a WL will cost less than for, say, a XL1200C. Less parts, and widely re-manufactured.

[Ritchie200]

my first scoot... 4HP side-shaft tecumseh lawnmower plant, bypassed governor. john-e-law killed the party one too many times and mom sold it. i was around 13. mine was a 73 model - pic is a 70 - they didn't change, mine was blue. pipe under seat got hot. i had to stop every so often and let butt cool off. no gears, just twist and go. brakes were well...let's just say sometimes i stopped by hopping off. damn thing rattled your teeth, but at that age you don't care. helmet? what @#$^ helmet? it was the 70's man!

--pete

Pete,

Wow, that brings back memories!  You had a high dollar model!  My first minibike was a true tiny wheeled mini made by Atlas.  front forks were "sprung" but was a hard tail.  It had a 3.5 hp Tecumseh that the guy I bought it from disconnected the governor and the con rod proceeded to disconnect from the piston and poke a hole in the front of the case.  It was a true basket case as I brought it home in baskets piece by piece - my mom was furious.  My dad and I went through that motor with parts we bought from an article in Minibike Yearbook magazine.  New high lift cam, valves, aluminum con rod - with safety wired bolts, re-balanced crank, new head, intake, and a Tillotson injector with a velocity stack my dad made work inside the air cleaner.  Never officially checked, but I'm sure I had it up around 6,000 rpm many times.  The thing was bulletproof.  Supposedly it made about 12hp.  I paid $20 for the minibike and my poor dad spent about $100 on parts (engine parts, new chain guard - at my moms insistence, weld reinforced cracked frame and handlebar).  That was a lot of money back then.  It was great father and son time I will never forget.  It had a Azusa centrifugal teeth chatterer to a jackshaft that you could turn one way for climbing hills or the other for speed.  With those tiny wheels it was always set up for climbing.  I could smoke every yamadog mini enduro in the neighborhood.  Eventually sold it to buy a '72 or '73 (?old age) Yamaha 100mx.  They only offered that engine one year.  It made like 14hp at 14,000rpm, downswept pipe, and louder than a chainsaw next to your ear.  Absolutely no low end torque but above 5 grand you better hold on.  Sold that to help fund my first Marshall Major purchase.  We thought we were so cool with our motocross gloves with the little sponge rubber strips sewn into the fingers and knuckles!  Wow, knocking down some spider webs, great memories!

Jim

[Platefire]

Well I'll have a part in the mini bike club too---back in the early 70's, long after my Allstate Moped was long gone I bought a mostly used up mini bike/scooter from a coworker. Don't even remember the brand but it did run but used oil badly. Had the equivalent of an upright lawnmower motor on it. When I took a spin on it, had to fill it up with oil and when the motor got hot you could feel the power deminishing. It was kinda nice to have something to ride on after being without for several years even though you were all crumpled up on it because of it size--mini! I must of kept it for about a year and sold it. It would be about 10 years later before I would come into a couple of Hondas.

On the Harley RI, I guess it's not really practical. If they were to reproduce classics, the price would be so far out there no one could afford them.

The guy that run radio shack here in town was an Indian Collector. He passed away recently. Couldn't help but wonder what happen to his Indians. He used to have most of the parts of old water cooled 4 cylinder that he kept in the back of the radio shack building. He use to take me in the back room and show me the parts and we would discuss it about restoration. Don't think he took any action to restore it. He did have an older V twin he restored---don't remember the model. He's the only one I know of where I live at that was into vintage bikes. Platefire

[DummyLoad]

Wow, that brings back memories!  You had a high dollar model!  My first minibike was a true tiny wheeled mini made by Atlas.

jim, good to rattle the memories from time to time. happy i did. i was headed down a similar path with the rupp. by then i was making good cash working in a bowling alley and the hodaka's caught my attention. the hondas and yammers were too pricey, and by the time i had enough money to buy a hodaka i'd fallen in with a different crowd and scooter enthusiasm waned being replaced with heathkits and computers becoming my main interests. not until i got much older and had a colleague who rode did the enthusiasm return. he helped spark the interest again, helped me re-learn riding, and now, 15 years later, i still can't stay off of the throttle.

--pete

[Jack_Hester]

On the Harley RI, I guess it's not really practical. If they were to reproduce classics, the price would be so far out there no one could afford them.

On the re-issue and practicality, yes and no.  If you are mechanically inclined, and have a workbench and shop space (that will no longer be available for anything else), you can duplicate a very nice old V-twin.  Though I've been out of touch with the European sources for a while, I see that some are still active.  Quality reproduction parts (read that as better than original specs) may still come out of Poland.  Of course, prices of parts are such that there's no real big savings, except that your labor is free.  That's the killer expense. 

The little WR racer can be somewhat duplicated, though I would advise anyone attempting such a build to not plan to burn the roads up.  They're tough, and will outlast most people.  Ride them on the backroads, and chains, tires, and oil will be the primary maintenance.  Enjoy the ride, and occasionally wind it up on a straight stretch.  The oil pumps in the 45's are vane pumps, and cannot pump against too much back pressure.  So, no filters.  However, it's very easy to make a small filter press.  One that you can attach to the oil drain on the tank, use the pump on the press to circulate the oil through a really good, high filtration filter, and back into the tank.  Just let it circulate for a couple hours, and you're ready for the road, again.

Your can buy all new parts:

http://webshop.45flatheadservice.com/epages/63114975.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/63114975/Categories

or you can do as I did for years, and take in the many swapmeets that pop up.  Parking lot swapmeets were the best.  You would rent a parking space (if you were selling, like I did often), park your truck, and sell out of the back.  Most of these swapmeets were run by 'clubs', and policed them better than you would ever imagine.  Nothing was stolen. 

Anyway, if you are fortunate to buy a set of cases with title, you are way ahead of anyone else.  But, a notarized bill of sale will get you a reconstructed title. 

And because it's your build, put whatever you want on it for lights, seats, whatever.  That way, it's a classic 40's and 50's Bobber.  Most builds like this take a year or more, so that the wallet isn't put under too much strain. 

Jack