Do capacitors sound different?

[jojokeo]

Is that the same one that doubles for medicinal tone tubby-like product as well?    I usually get a little "loving" back of the head slap as my eyes are closed, back is turned, and totally defenseless...which feels just like a 400V B+ zap!

[Ed_Chambley]

I don't have the ear hair and neither does my Father who is still with us.  I have also taken measures to protect my hearing since my fathers occupation caused hearing loss in him.  He berated me every time he would see me jamming without earplugs when I was a kid.  He would break the filters off 2 new cigarettes and stick them in my ears.

I am so glad he did cause I have a lot of musician friends that have hearing loss.  I have some from a Military accident, but it only caused loss in the 16K area and it is very confined to the 16kHz area.

I believe Sluckey hears better than he admits tho as he did trash a matchless build for a Vox build and I know when he got the avatar cab he was grinnin like the Cheshire cat. We all lose some hearing due to age I believe.  The reason I think so is the older you get usually the more you dislike new music.

[sluckey]

I was grinning cause you said I would!

[MacGwyn]

Just two cents from a not-hugely-experienced amp builder:  I've swapped-out and "ear tested" different style caps in different areas of my guitar amp builds... and every time, the orange drops have been my favorite.  I could hear definite differences between each style of cap.  I've also heard that they tend to be more stable under high temperatures which tube amp parts must endure.

[Willabe]

Which OD's?

[John]

He would break the filters off 2 new cigarettes and stick them in my ears.

Now that's love, right there!

[John]

So, to get the most out of your money with high dollar caps, they should go early in the preamp also I would think. IF, God forbid, I was spending $15 a cap, I'm only buying one.    And putting it in the first coupling cap position. Another place I'd consider would be in one of those fancy hi impedance input circuits I've seen.


Thoughts?

[shooter]

break the filters off 2 new cigarettes and stick them in my ears.

If you light them 1st you clean out the ear hair and wax build-up 

[PRR]

> found COG/NPO are multi-layer

NP0 (C0G) ceramic has been around a LOT longer than multi-layer construction.

Usta be they pressed a ceramic "plate", silvered both sides, dipped in slurry and fired. "One Layer".

I see they now have pFd/uFd values never dreamed of in the old days. I gather they roll ceramic like cookie dough, dice to small squares, stack with metalizing and fire, to get many times more pFd/uFd in smaller space.

> specified these as "class 1 ceramic" ...the article mentioned Class 2 ceramic to not be used for audio.

I had not heard that classification, and am not sure it is official, but there is a very clear distinction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic_capacitor#Class_1_ceramic_capacitors

Class 1 is stable against temperature and voltage. It is also incidentally low-low-loss, "perfect".

Class 2 is much more uFd in the same space, but effective value varies wildly with voltage and temperature. The voltage variation means audio distortion. Sometimes this adds a nice edge, but unpredictably.

C0G has friends like N220 N1000 and even P100. These vary with temperature, but in a tightly defined way. In the old days we used coils and capacitors together to tune radios. Coil mechanical dimensions vary with temp, value changes, the radio drifts off-station as it warms. The ability to tune cap temp drift the other way allows much lower drift. The amount of drift that throws a radio from K-100 to Z-101 station is MUCH less than any drift we care about in audio. N220 etc caps are just as good as NP0/G0G caps for audio. However I sense that N220 etc have become specialty items (radios today are tuned other ways), and NP0 is old-school, expect C0G caps.

[uki]

Eventually I'll get my test-cap rig completed and do some listening myself.

So far the candidate caps are as follows:

• Mallory (CDE) M150 (metalized polyester)
• Fender Red (Kraft paper/Tin foil/Wax)
• CDE 418P (polyester film/foil; successor to OD 225P)
• Solen MKP-FC/PPM (metalized polypropylene)
• Auricap XO (metalized polypropylene)
• CDE 715P (polypropylene film/foil)
• Musicap (polypropylene film/foil)
• K42Y-2 (small green paper in oil)
• K40Y-9 (larger silver paper in oil)
• K75-12 (hybrid paper/PET (polyester) in oil)
• KSG-2 (Mica) or SSG-1 (mica)
• FT-2 (Teflon) or FT-3 (Teflon)

Where there's an "or" it's because some types don't offer certain values, and a substitution for the closest type with the specified dielectric/construction was made.

Everything after the Musicap is a Russian cap type. I'm mounting these thing inside a former GR decade resistor box, and the mica & teflon caps are rather huge & heavy. So I'll have to secure those to the box itselfas the switch alone can't support them. Even some of the oil types are quite heavy for their size... So that's slowing assembly down a bit.

Which type/brand have the smoothest sound, not too bright or too muddy or dry or metallic, just smooth, like velvet?

[HotBluePlates]

... I first used the C0G ...  Robert Keeley wrote an article on modding the pedal and specified these as "class 1 ceramic" ...  I do remember the article mentioned Class 2 ceramic to not be used for audio.

I have since reading your reply found COG/NPO are multi-layer and a link: http://www.cde.com/resources/catalogs/ceramperf.pdf
I am finding there is way more information on ceramic caps than I first thought and can easily understand why it is common for some ceramic types to cause unpleasant results. 

Skim the 6-part article until it mentions ceramic caps; you'll see the class 1 C0G measured near-perfect in testing (better than some film caps), while class 2 & class 3 ceramics exhibited a lot of distortion. All you really need to know from the data sheet you linked is that there are 3 classes, and C0G is class 1.

I used quite a few Z5 ceramic disc caps in my AO-63 conversion project, mainly because the original was loaded with them. ... Should I have chosen a different cap?

Should? Of course not; use whatever works for you.

I have a lot of amps with Z5 caps and I did not even know what the difference was until they started this thread.  I think it is funny what you read on amp forums and how a LOT of people say ceramic? Bad?  ...

Hopefully folks will note I've not said "bad" in relation to a cap in this thread. Though I did say one type of ceramic measured "horrible" because it had lots of distortion compared to other caps, where low distortion was the test criteria. Additionally, I brought up the distortion piece as a way to help explain why some caps sound differently than others, as it is an objective measurable quantity (though you can subjectively screw up the measurements by not having a low-enough-distortion test signal and/or buffering).

Eventually I'll get my test-cap rig completed ...

Which type/brand have the smoothest sound, not too bright or too muddy or dry or metallic, just smooth, like velvet?

My cap substitution box is not built yet.

Further, I can tell what my impressions are testing the caps in a specific amp circuit, using a specific guitar and speakers; however, that may not translate to how they will/won't sound when you use them. I will not be telling anyone what cap to use. Others can/should try for themselves if they are inclined. Why? Because I've tried expensive caps in amps before and generally found the change not worth the cost. However, I am curious about the specific types I bought for this test.

[uki]

When you say distortion , what are you talking about exactly? Not like a pedal distortion, is that correct?

[HotBluePlates]

When you say distortion , what are you talking about exactly?

Post #1 of this thread; the linked multi-part article...

[uki]

I've found that article in PDF format here are the links for all of it 

http://www.waynekirkwood.com/images/pdf/Cyril_Bateman/Bateman_Notes_Cap_Sound_1.pdf
http://www.waynekirkwood.com/images/pdf/Cyril_Bateman/Bateman_Notes_Cap_Sound_2.pdf
http://www.waynekirkwood.com/images/pdf/Cyril_Bateman/Bateman_Notes_Cap_Sound_3.pdf
http://www.waynekirkwood.com/images/pdf/Cyril_Bateman/Bateman_Notes_Cap_Sound_4.pdf
http://www.waynekirkwood.com/images/pdf/Cyril_Bateman/Bateman_Notes_Cap_Sound_5.pdf
http://www.waynekirkwood.com/images/pdf/Cyril_Bateman/Bateman_Notes_Cap_Sound_6.pdf

[Ed_Chambley]

... I first used the C0G ...  Robert Keeley wrote an article on modding the pedal and specified these as "class 1 ceramic" ...  I do remember the article mentioned Class 2 ceramic to not be used for audio.

I have since reading your reply found COG/NPO are multi-layer and a link: http://www.cde.com/resources/catalogs/ceramperf.pdf
I am finding there is way more information on ceramic caps than I first thought and can easily understand why it is common for some ceramic types to cause unpleasant results. 

Skim the 6-part article until it mentions ceramic caps; you'll see the class 1 C0G measured near-perfect in testing (better than some film caps), while class 2 & class 3 ceramics exhibited a lot of distortion. All you really need to know from the data sheet you linked is that there are 3 classes, and C0G is class 1.

I used quite a few Z5 ceramic disc caps in my AO-63 conversion project, mainly because the original was loaded with them. ... Should I have chosen a different cap?

Should? Of course not; use whatever works for you.

I have a lot of amps with Z5 caps and I did not even know what the difference was until they started this thread.  I think it is funny what you read on amp forums and how a LOT of people say ceramic? Bad?  ...

Hopefully folks will note I've not said "bad" in relation to a cap in this thread. Though I did say one type of ceramic measured "horrible" because it had lots of distortion compared to other caps, where low distortion was the test criteria. Additionally, I brought up the distortion piece as a way to help explain why some caps sound differently than others, as it is an objective measurable quantity (though you can subjectively screw up the measurements by not having a low-enough-distortion test signal and/or buffering).

Eventually I'll get my test-cap rig completed ...

Which type/brand have the smoothest sound, not too bright or too muddy or dry or metallic, just smooth, like velvet?

My cap substitution box is not built yet.

Further, I can tell what my impressions are testing the caps in a specific amp circuit, using a specific guitar and speakers; however, that may not translate to how they will/won't sound when you use them. I will not be telling anyone what cap to use. Others can/should try for themselves if they are inclined. Why? Because I've tried expensive caps in amps before and generally found the change not worth the cost. However, I am curious about the specific types I bought for this test.

HBP, I was not referring to your posted comments.  It is simply common that I read to replace ceramic especially in tone stacks with silver mica.  I simply had a supply of silver mica caps that were bad.  They came from Weber and I had a couple of people not happy with their amps.

Long story short, it took me a long time to find it on the first comeback.  I replaced them with the black ones like Doug sells and the problem disappeared but my apprehension to using them has not.

[Ed_Chambley]

He would break the filters off 2 new cigarettes and stick them in my ears.

Now that's love, right there!

I knew someone was going to pick that out.  It is true, but remember I am talking about when Cigarettes were 30 cents a pack so not as much love as it would be today.

They actually worked well.

[shooter]

when Cigarettes were 30 cents a pack

I think you could make the case that 30cents back then was worth more than $8 today 

[tubenit]

Just an FYI on MusiCaps caps.  I wanted to make sure which end should point where?  So I did the outer foil test that I normally do.

top picture on Reply #13 on this ARCHIVE thread:  http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=11427.0

There was a HUGE difference in noise/quietness having the "correct" end towards ground.  MUCH much more pronounced then doing the same experiment with Orange Drop PS caps of the same value.  Dramatic difference.

Same value OD PS cap does have a quiet end. But the noise difference on the OD PS caps was no where near the amount of dramatic difference of the Musicaps.   I only bought 3 caps in .02 and .047 values & the dramatic difference between quiet and noise was evident on all 3 caps. You can't miss the difference on the Musicap. 

The caps came with a red lead and a white lead.   The white lead goes in the direction that a normally marked end that an Orange Drop would go. So for an example where a marked end of an OD cap goes towards the tube socket,  the white lead end of the Musicap goes towards the tube socket.   (see photo reply #13 on ARCHIVE thread of foil orientation)

In contrast, sometimes on some values of the OD caps I have to listen very carefully to hear the noise difference.

I don't know IF that means anything special about Musicaps being "better" or more transparent or not?  Maybe they are not. What I can say conclusively is that the values I tried on the Musicaps gave a very easily discerned transparent difference between the ends. 

It also seemed like the quiet end of the Musicap is quieter then the quiet end of an OD of the same value.  AND that the noisy end of the Musicap is noisier then the OD of the same value.  That was my impression. 

Probably won't have a chance to install these and A/B them til the weekend but I will report the results later.  These are going into the D'Mars which has ALOT of caps in the signal path.  So remember,  I am only changing out 3 to see IF only 3 would make any difference?  Given the high cost of these caps,  I wanted to see if only a few would make a noticeable difference.

with respect, Tubenit

[plaidzebra]

Hey all, thanks for posting all of this information. At some point I'd like to build a simple amp that I could use to test different components to hear for myself what they sound like. Everyone talks about how different types of capacitors sound different compared to one another, but I don't have enough experience building amps to know just how different they sound.

If I were going to build a 5F1 in order to test different caps, would I put a rotary switch connected to a bunch of different caps in place of C2 or C3 (using Doug's schematic)?

If I used a solderless breadboard rather than one of Doug's boards, would that be an easy way to test different tone stacks?

Assuming I had enough money to spend on transformers, could I easily test different power/preamp tubes with a circuit? I'm curious about how a KT88- or 6550-equipped Champ would sound.

Sorry about all the questions, I'm just trying to pick up as much as I can from everyone here. I still have a LOT to learn from you guys!

[shooter]

look at willabe's thread on his breadboard for info on rotary switch, and 5f1 layout.
 http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=18354.msg200504#msg200504

I built this amp last year, tried kt88, 6550, and EL34 in the PA section, currently using the KT.  you can mate the PA section with any pre-amp

[Willabe]

Thank you Shooter, for positing the link in answer to Plaidzebra's question. 

[Willabe]

There was a HUGE difference in noise/quietness having the "correct" end towards ground.  MUCH much more pronounced then doing the same experiment with Orange Drop PS caps of the same value.  Dramatic difference.

Same value OD PS cap does have a quiet end. But the noise difference on the OD PS caps was no where near the amount of dramatic difference of the Musicaps.  ,,,,,,  the dramatic difference between quiet and noise was evident on all 3 caps. You can't miss the difference on the Musicap. 

What I can say conclusively is that the values I tried on the Musicaps gave a very easily discerned transparent difference between the ends.

Now wait a dog gone minute now,             Som'thin screwy is going on here.   

When this 1st started, on testing for the outside foil, I found, to my ear any way, that the SMALLER the caps value, the HARDER it was for me to hear a noise difference. BUT, you and Gezzer found the opposite, the LARGER the value of the cap, the HARDER it was to hear a difference.   

So, at this point, my conclusion is : There MUST be something different in the way you (and Gezzer) are testing caps for the outside foil lead than I am? Because, ..... I'm getting the opposite results.        

And, out of the caps I've been able to test for outside foil, in my test rig, I found that the Musicap was the LOWEST in difference between outside foil and inside foil lead. PLUS the Musicap were WAY lower in noise, from outside/inside, of any of the other caps I tried/tested.         

Of all the caps I have tested;

1st; I measured them for capacitance value, no big deal, just to see if their close.

2nd; I tested and marked them for 'outside foil'. (My test's, only 2 caps, showed what you got on the Musicaps, white lead is the outside foil lead.)
 

[tubenit]

Wow!  Yeah, I'd say our experience is quite different. I did the test with Orange Drop and Musicaps last night side by side.

I find above .1 to be very difficult to assess and below .002 also somewhat difficult.  The range between .0047 to .068 is easy to hear the difference with smaller values easiest to hear. I always use the clean channel of my amps to test the caps.

The amp is quieter with .1 & is noisier with above .002 in my experience. In other words, with .1 the difference in quietness either direction isn't as great in comparison to a .02    AND the difference in noise with the .002 isn't as great with either direction.

I have always tested like in this photo.  See how my thumb and forefinger is sort of "pinching" the cap.  After I have the wires hooked up,  I pinch and open and pinch and open and pinch and open .......... etc ......... my thumb and forefinger. 

Then I switch the cap around and do the same thing.  It is the pinching and opening that reveals which side is quieter to me.  When the quiet end is towards ground & I pinch the cap ............ it does not make nearly as much noise as when the noisy end is towards ground and I pinch the cap.  The noise increases when I pinch the cap and is quieter when I am not pinching the cap.

Anyhow, that's what I do and it seems to work well for me as my amps are very quiet at idle. Like on my D'Mars, I can set the amp up like this:
If you walked into the room with the amp on with the clean channel ........... I am not sure one would  know the amp is on audibly.  However, without changing any settings on the amp ........... IF I banged a chord out,  I think it would startle someone because it is so loud because of how loud I had the settings dialed in.

With respect, Tubenit

[tubenit]

Brad,  if you have time to try it ...........

Take a Musicap and Orange Drop of the same values. 

Listen to the difference in noise between pinching and opening your thumb & forefinger with the caps either direction

VS.

the difference in noise with the caps either direction without pinching & opening your thumb and forefinger.

The pinching and opening motion reveals to me what end is the quietest not just clipping them in either direction.  I think you will find the pinching and opening motion will prove a greater contrast in noise with the Musicap?   Maybe?

Again, my amps are quiet at idle.  My D'Mars at idle would be  MUCH quieter then the Fender Princeton Reverb (I used to own)  at idle even if the D'Mars volume was set at twice the PR volume. 

With respect, Tubenit

[Willabe]

See how my thumb and forefinger is sort of "pinching" the cap.  After I have the wires hooked up,  I pinch and open and pinch and open and pinch and open .......... etc ......... my thumb and forefinger. 

Then I switch the cap around and do the same thing.  It is the pinching and opening that reveals which side is quieter to me.  When the quiet end is towards ground & I pinch the cap ............ it does not make nearly as much noise as when the noisy end is towards ground and I pinch the cap.  The noise increases when I pinch the cap and is quieter when I am not pinching the cap.

Listen to the difference in noise between pinching and opening your thumb & forefinger with the caps either direction

VS.

the difference in noise with the caps either direction without pinching & opening your thumb and forefinger.

The pinching and opening motion reveals to me what end is the quietest not just clipping them in either direction.  I think you will find the pinching and opening motion will prove a greater contrast in noise with the Musicap?   

I'm doing the exact same thing as you are.      I wonder if it's my test rig box I built? 


I had a friend over a few weeks ago and I showed him my cap test rig box because I wanted to see if he would hear the same thing that I was. That the smaller the cap, the harder it was to hear a difference. He heard what I'm hearing.

He's in his late 50's, is a guitar player, is a PHD in science/chemistry and his father 1st got him going in electronics when he under 10, as he was a Ham radio guy. He has used all kinds of test equipment over the years doing research for developing/refining/problem solving for major chemical companies products manufacturing. He has been teaching me how to use my scope.

I'll play around with some caps again.

[Willabe]

Here's what I posted earlier in my bread board thread;

1. Mallory 150/white/630v/22.02nF.
2. Mallory 150/yellow/630v/22.02nF.
3. Jupiter/yellow/600v/20.39nF.
4. Jupiter/red/600v/19.28nF.
5. SoZo/blue/400v/22.02nF.
6. Musicap/600v/23.00nF.
7. AuriCap XO/600v/20.78
8. Mojo Mustard/630v/22.05nF.
9. Orange Drop/400v/22.74nF.
10. OD 715/400v/22.30nF

Here's what I think so far after 3 different rounds of playing on 3 different days, playing single notes and full chords, both with -FB and without -FB;

Also, and I don't know what it means, was when I tested for the caps outside foil lead, some were way noisier than others. (I mean how noisy the cap is with the outside foil lead hooked up to the test amps input.) The Mallory's were the nosiest with the white being the worst. The Musicap and AuriCap were by far the quietest. The quite 1's had very little difference in noise when flipping the switch to flip the caps leads. And on the outside foil cap lead to the test amps input they were way quieter than the other caps on their outside foil lead. Big difference.

I was thinking, before these tests, that the fatter the cap the more shielding it would have from outside foil lead to the inside foil lead. So larger values/larger voltage rating(fatter cap) would have more difference when switching leads. A 0.1uF cap is way easier to hear a difference than a .0047uF cap, I have a very hard time hearing any difference in leads on a Mallory white 150. (I know that Tubenit and Gezzer have posted they hear the opposite.  )  But the Musicap was the quietest and is the thinnest. 

My friend and I came to a possible conclusion that the smaller/shorter caps were picking up our fat little thumb and finger being closer to the caps leads than the bigger/longer caps. 

[Ed_Chambley]

Brad,
Did not know you had a scope.  I quit using the finger/thumb method because I have had a few cases where I am uncertain and could not determine to my satisfaction the correct orientation.  Here youtube video showing you how to use a scope to determine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnR_DLd1PDI

[jojokeo]

Great video Ed.
 
I test my caps using a distortion or Fuzz pedal to help with ramping up the noise level to be heard easier. I initially tested a number of caps a while back with and without holding/pinching the caps and noticed differences between the two methods. I would get the opposite readings "most" of the time but not always (between holding the cap or not). I ended up using the holding method primarily from that point onward to positive results. There's no need to go to the extremes of the guy in the video to build a simple tester. In fact you don't need anything but a guitar chord but this is too slow and rather cumbersome. Here's a simple small cap testing switch box below with alligator leads for the cap under test and an input jack for making it faster & easier to plug the amp chord into. It works well and is fast with the switching ability to go back and forth quickly on the fly between the two positions which is easier to hear those smaller noise differences. The little crude drawing is as if viewed from the backside and "Normal" means the colors are correct, "Reverse" means they are opposite to mark the cap under test properly.
 
One other note of interest from this is that the guy is correct in noting & explaining the lead immediately exiting the cap. It is considered the high impedance end of the cap and also becomes part of the grid wiring from that point onward. This means that your signal is very sensitive at this point to induced hum & interferences just as your input leads are from your input jack. Keep these wires as short as practical and away from B+, high current wiring, other signal wires, etc... if this wire actually is to go near anything as described or for a run of any distance then connecting to and using shielded cable would be appropriate. An ounce of prevention...

[tubenit]

OK,  I did an experiment comparing Musicaps to Orange Drop PS caps in just a few areas.  To be honest, I did not expect to hear much of a difference in tone given the number of caps in the signal path in this amp.

I changed the .02 on V1-1 from the Orange Drop PS to the Musicap .02   There was somewhat between a noticeable difference to slight significant difference. It was NOT a dramatic difference to my ears.  The caps were different and I would not say that one was truly "better" then the other.

I think with it being the first cap in the signal path that this may explain why I could hear a difference between the two. I am confident that most of the forum members could be blind folded and pick out which cap was which.  It was that significant of a difference, IMO.

The Orange Drop PS had a more chimey (maybe bell like) tone. It had a little grit and sort of sounded like it was more midscooped (which doesn't make sense) when playing chords meaning I could hear the bass and treble notes best and the mids were somewhat less transparent.  It was reasonably smooth but when a note or chord was strummed, there seemed to be an "attack/spike" initially with the notes began fading out and losing strength.

In contrast, the Musicap was much smoother.  Bass, mids and treble were all transparent and articulate.  Mids were very warm and very transparent compared to the Orange Drop. The Musicap had significantly more sustain then the Orange Drop and the notes did not have the initial spikey attack and the notes held their tone/body well.  The main thing I liked about the Musicap was how transparent it was, how smooth it was and the length of the sustain.  The sustain was biggest surprise.

What I don't like about the Musicaps is soldering them in. It's reasonably easy but the Orange Drop with stiff wire leads is much easy to solder into turrets then the stranded wire.  They are also expensive at $10+ each.  And the length is greater then the Orange Drops which I don't like.

When I did this test,  I simply A/B'd them back and forth about a dozen times over 30 minutes playing single note leads, chording and finger picking. I was able to change from one cap to the other within seconds.

The Musicap gave what I consider a reasonable improvement in the smoothness, transparency (especially in mids) & a surprising increase in sustain. I left the cap in.

The one Musicap on the clean channel did NOT make any discernible difference to the overdrive channel that I could tell.

[Willabe]

And did you change the PI caps?

[tubenit]

The next thing I tried was replacing the pair of Orange Drop PS .05 caps with Musicap .047 caps in the coupling caps post LTPI. 

I could hear a difference between those two, but it was just different and not necessarily "better". I liked the OD caps about as well as the Musicap.  The Musicap was slightly more transparent.  I don't think there was any improvement in smoothness or sustain in this position that I could hear.  Perhaps that might be because those caps were further down the signal chain.

I was not able to effectively A/B these within seconds like on the first coupling cap. So, it was more challenging to define the differences.  I have left the Musicaps in the post LTPI coupling cap positions for now. Not confident that  I could clearly discern which was which if blindfolded? 

I could not tell a difference in chime or attack with Orange Drops vs. smoothness in Musicaps. They seemed very similar in tone in those regards.

With these caps in place, I think the overdrive seemed a little more transparent but not a big difference.

I think I'd like to replace the one .01 coupling cap after the first gain stage of the overdrive and see what changes if any there are?

Some thoughts I have after experimenting with this.  1)  I think the first coupling cap is worth changing to a Musicap.  2)  There may be diminishing benefits changing other ones, but I don't know?   3)  This is kind of hard to describe and explain but if I had all Musicaps in the amp and they continued to make the amp more and more transparent, ............. I am not sure I'd like an amp with that degree of transparency?  I think it might sound good for a jazz amp or for an amp for an acoustic guitar not sure about a solid body electric?

IF I get around to changing out something on the OD channel,  I will report back again.

With respect, Tubenit

[tubenit]

One thing I am wondering about with the Musicaps is that given their leads are stranded wire that is flexible,  I don't know if that is a hinderence in a combo amp ............ OR if that might actually be like having a shock absorber (flexible wire) and allow the caps to not add any microphonics?   I have no idea if it's a plus or a minus?

[Willabe]

Thanks for posting your test results Tubenit. 

I look forward to hear about what you hear if you change the one .01 coupling cap after the first gain stage of the overdrive.

The Musicap at this point, I'm leaning towards as my favorite cap out of the caps I've tried.

It is smooth sounding to me but it has some 'hair' (not too much) and warmth to it that I like. It seems very well balanced from low end to high end. 

[jojokeo]

Tubenit, may I ask you to perform a different cap test please?
 
Since most here like using the Mallory150 or the ODs as they are most common and Doug also sells these - would it be too much trouble to try subbing in the Mallory150? You are very good about describing your results and to me, I've often wondered about these two compared with each other.
 
Your description of the OD is exactly what I seem to notice & experience as well with the Mallory seemingly being a bit more similar to the Musicap side of things (going by your description)? So maybe the Mallory's are just fine without the expense & wiring issue associated with the Musicap?
 
Thanks for your efforts!

[printer2]

look at willabe's thread on his breadboard for info on rotary switch, and 5f1 layout.
 http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=18354.msg200504#msg200504

I built this amp last year, tried kt88, 6550, and EL34 in the PA section, currently using the KT.  you can mate the PA section with any pre-amp

I like the schematic, how does the amp sound?

(If nobody minds me asking.)

[Willabe]

I'd like to hear that from Tubenit also. 

For me, the white Mallory sounded nothing like the Musicap, nor did the yellow Mallory. The OD 225 (PS?) sounded closer to the Musicap than the white Mallory but still noticeably different.

BUT........ I've only tested 1 of each cap, so..........   

[Willabe]

I like the schematic, how does the amp sound?

Which schematic?

[Ed_Chambley]

Great video Ed.
 
I test my caps using a distortion or Fuzz pedal to help with ramping up the noise level to be heard easier. I initially tested a number of caps a while back with and without holding/pinching the caps and noticed differences between the two methods. I would get the opposite readings "most" of the time but not always (between holding the cap or not). I ended up using the holding method primarily from that point onward to positive results. There's no need to go to the extremes of the guy in the video to build a simple tester. In fact you don't need anything but a guitar chord but this is too slow and rather cumbersome. Here's a simple small cap testing switch box below with alligator leads for the cap under test and an input jack for making it faster & easier to plug the amp chord into. It works well and is fast with the switching ability to go back and forth quickly on the fly between the two positions which is easier to hear those smaller noise differences. The little crude drawing is as if viewed from the backside and "Normal" means the colors are correct, "Reverse" means they are opposite to mark the cap under test properly.
 
One other note of interest from this is that the guy is correct in noting & explaining the lead immediately exiting the cap. It is considered the high impedance end of the cap and also becomes part of the grid wiring from that point onward. This means that your signal is very sensitive at this point to induced hum & interferences just as your input leads are from your input jack. Keep these wires as short as practical and away from B+, high current wiring, other signal wires, etc... if this wire actually is to go near anything as described or for a run of any distance then connecting to and using shielded cable would be appropriate. An ounce of prevention...

Yes, he goes a bit overboard.  I built one and also used a switch and have used a patch cord with a fuzz and a champ.  None of this is as easy to me as what he first does in the video using a BNC with clips.  I simply do it this way now because I trust the scope and you only have to place it once and no need to switch back and fourth.

What I found interesting is the caps he showed that were marked, both were opposite of what I thought.  Since I have checked and all old sprague caps mark the opposite, whereas sozo and the yellow astrons in Brown and Tweed amps all mark the the outer shield.

So there is no standard.  Also I have a 5C1 champ that have OD 715 and I reversed all of them with no measurable increase in noise.

I can hear a difference between caps, but I end up using 2 or 3 different types in my builds since I only keep good quality caps.  I use what fits the best and sometimes what looks best.  If I am using a red board, I prefer black caps and will recycle a Black Beauty in a minute.  I also use Aerovox white caps that have a similar shape of Musicap against a red board too.

[tubenit]

I have compared Mallory 150's to Orange Drop 715's and also Orange Drop PS series in numerous amps. 

Overall, I am not a fan of Mallory caps thru out an entire amp but I do like them quite well in LTPI & post LTPI coupling caps and I think they sound decent in an overdrive channel.  I think they give a somewhat compressed and warm tone.

I do not care for them in a preamp or in tone stacks and have found that they lack transparency compared to other caps that I have tried. I have not found them to have good harmonics in the preamps of my specific amps.

One amp I built where I used all Mallory 150's sounded like I had a thin blanket over the speaker. I changed that particular amp to all Orange Drops in the PreAmp and tone stack and thought it sounded fantastic after that. I lost some of the harmonics in the higher frequencies with the Mallory's.

Regarding trying that again in my D'Mars preamp,  I am not going to remove the soldered Musicap to test the Mallory's. I've compared them enough in previous builds to be comfortable with my findings.

With respect, Tubenit

[Willabe]

I changed that particular amp to all Orange Drops in the PreAmp and tone stack and thought it sounded fantastic after that.

To be clear, you changed to OD PS series caps?

[tubenit]

Brad,

I remember in at least two of the amps that I started with Mallory's but change them I changed to the Orange Drops 715's that Doug carries not the PS series.

Another way of stating what I am trying to say is with the Mallory's in the preamp & tone stack, I did not find the note/string definition in chording to articulate very well.  It was OK with power chords or single note lead guitar but lacked transparency in strumming or fingerpicking chords in a way that is trying to accent and articulate specific notes within that chord.  Hope that makes sense?

It did seem like the Mallory's eliminates some of the high end frequency "hash" but it eliminated transparency in the preamp tone along with that.  I could see all Mallory 150's thru out an amp like an 18watt using EL84's working quite well.  IF the same amp was running 6V6's (that are not as chimey, IMO), then I'd want Orange Drops in the preamp.

One of the best overdrive tones I've ever had was with the original Tweed Overdrive Special and it had a mix of Orange Drops in the Preamp and Xicon and Mallory 150's after the preamp.  I did the same thing in my original Carolina Overdrive Special also.

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=9488477&q=hi&newref=1

With respect, Tubenit

[Willabe]

Ok, just wanted to be sure which type of OD's you were talking about. 

But are the 715's still your favored OD cap over the OD PS (225?) series? (Some how I got the impression you favored the OD PS series, at least latter on?     ) 

Nice playing BTW. 

[tubenit]

Yes, I prefer the Orange Drop PS in the Tweed BluezMeister and the D'Mars ODS which are D-style inspired amps.

In the Carolina Blues Special,  TOS, HoSo56 and others, ......... when I used Orange Drops I used 715's.  In the CBS, I definitely preferred the 715's and would choose them over the PS series.

There are so many factors involved around tone and caps in my opinion.  Speaker, guitar, player, topology of the amp schematic, pedals or not, tube reverb or vibrato or not, type of music you like.  I think it's kind of an amp by amp thing.

I have not cared for amps with all Mallory 150's because they lack some transparency.  Conversely,  I am guessing I would not like an amp with all Musicaps with a solid body electric because it would sound too transparent and perhaps hi-fi-ish?  I think a preamp with all Musicaps and an LTPI and after having Mallory's could sound really great.

With respect, Tubenit

[Willabe]

Ok, thanks, I just want to be sure I'm understanding you. 

[printer2]

I like the schematic, how does the amp sound?

Which schematic?

Sorry, thought it was included with the post. Not sure if it will come up right.

LeGourmet.jpg

Don't really see many SE amps with a couple of cold clippers. Assuming they are cold, but now looking at the plate resistors I am not sure.

[HotBluePlates]

I built my cap substitution box. I used a General Radio Decade Resistor which had a burned-open resistor section as a donor for the chassis box. It has 3 switches which have a position for each of the caps I noted in my earlier post, with a switch for 0.022uF, 0.047uF and 0.1uF. There is a 4th switch of select which of the value-switches is active.

Note if you copy my path: The black terminal on these GR products can be connected to the case via a metal clip on the terminal with no plastic bushing. If you have that clip connected, you have a 50/50 shot of placing the case at plate voltage of the coupling cap you're replacing. So please, check carefully with a meter from terminal to guitar strings to know if you're setting yourself up for a big shock.

The pictures below show the assembly of the caps on the various switches. The bigger caps (some oil caps, but all mica and Teflon) had to mounted on the case itself and wired to the switch.

[Willabe]

WOW!  Very nice work! 

[HotBluePlates]

I tried using my substitution box to replace the coupling cap on V1 of an Epi Valve Jr. See picture below for where the cap box was connected in circuit.

I broke apart C1 with some cutters to leave leads extending above the p.c. board, to which I attached my cap sub box with alligator jumper clips.

Bottom line, I heard essentially no change among any of the cap positions. I used a 2x12 cabinet loaded with Scumback speakers to do the listening test, as they're much clearer han the onboard Valve Jr speaker. I tried all pickup combinations of both a Les Paul & a Tele (both with very good pickups).

Further, the Mallory M150 and the Russki Teflon caps are in adjacent switch positions, representing the theoretically "best" & "worst" caps of the test batch, which provided very fast switching between the two. Still, I couldn't hear any difference between the two settings that couldn't be put down to playing difference (picking, volume, etc).

IF here's an actual sonic difference between the caps tested, then this amp isn't allowing them to be heard. This amp is completely stock except for the cap I broke apart to provide a test point. I did, however, expect there to be a audible difference in the V1 coupling cap position.

The only caveat is my testing was done playing cleanly, and at relatively low volume (I'm an apartment dweller). However, if the differences are so subtle they can't be heard when playing clean, then the cost of the tweak-caps isn't justified in my opinion. An alternative explanation is the existing output transformer, caps or some other circuit element doesn't allow the change to be heard. I don't know if/when I might make upgrades to this amp's transformers, etc.

[Willabe]

Do you still have a Fender type Champ or Princeton?

[HotBluePlates]

I've got a pretty decent 5E3 copy. I may try the sub box in that amp for a 2nd opinion.