Will tubes cost us even more?

[Latole]

President Trump wants to raise tariffs on all products entering the US. 

The vast majority of guitars are made outside the country.
Amps too.
Many Fenders are made in Mexico, to mention just a few. Tubes and more.

[kagliostro]

And the more of tube factories are in russia

 

Franco

[tubeswell]

On the flip-side, tariffs on foreign imports into the USA may encourage overseas manufacturers to become more innovative and cost-competitive. 🍿

[bmccowan]

On the flip-side, tariffs on foreign imports into the USA may encourage overseas manufacturers to become more innovative and cost-competitive. 🍿

[shooter]

On the flip-side

got my 1st tank of Argon, waiting on the Tungsten, sands free here, add heat, I'm selling INCANDESENT lightbulbs to the world, 12 minutes after those stupid LEDs are banned from existence!   

[Latole]

On the flip-side, tariffs on foreign imports into the USA may encourage overseas manufacturers to become more innovative and cost-competitive. 🍿

Time will tell.

But if they can be even more competitive, why didn't they let us benefit from it before ?

I'm afraid that if they do, it will be to the detriment of the country's employees to see their conditions worsen.

[dwinstonwood]

I just finished a build thread on this forum where I used five less-common NOS, USA tubes. I spent $103.97 for all five tubes, or, an average of $20.79 per tube (including a NOS 1953 RCA JAN CRC metal 6V6).

I know that doesn't help anyone re-tubing Fenders or Marshalls, etc., but it's the alternative that I chose. And, it was a heck of a lot of fun - and, a rewarding challenge - coming up with a successful way to use these "oddball" tubes.

David

[Latole]

For me, NOS tubes don't guarantee anything.

I've seen ads like this too often, and the details the sellers gave about the tubes didn't mean they were new and in good condition.
But you have to know... And at this low price, it's suspicious.

[EL34]

Tariffs may not benefit Vacuum tubes in the same way it will benefit other manufacturing.

For example, John Deer saying they will move to Mexico.
If you stay here, then Americans have jobs and you avoid tariffs

Over the years, so many industries have moved to other countries
Now it may benefit them to open or re-open plants here where people can have jobs.

You can look up the history on how the US had money to burn when we had tariffs and there was no income taxes.

[Latole]

Companies have relocated to lower their costs, and what they may have had to face competition from certain countries where labor costs are lower.

If companies move back home, labor costs will be higher and they'll be able to compete with other countries if they're subject to 25% taxes.
In either case, everything will cost us more.

[Willabe]

In either case, everything will cost us more.

No, that's not a given. Have to wait and see how this all unfolds.

Will take some time until it's worked out and settles in. I'd give it at least 6 months to a year, then we'll know something more solid.

The US can't keep letting other countries walk all over us. We can't afford to. We can't have major companies building huge plants just across the border in Mexico and shipping their product into the US. We loose all those jobs here.

This is what happened when they let China take over saying we can buy things much cheaper from China. How'd that work out?

They sell us a bunch of cheap junk that doesn't last and much of it can't be repaired and we lost millions of jobs here.   

[EL34]

It's not a good idea to lock yourself into an idea that something may not work out
I would rather see Americans get jobsThe country cannot keep loosing places to work.

[Latole]

I'm not making this up.

The economists who dare to speak out say the same thing: everything should cost more.
I haven't read a single one to the contrary.

[bmccowan]

The US can't keep letting other countries walk all over us. We can't afford to. We can't have major companies building huge plants just across the border in Mexico and shipping their product into the US.

I think this is true, but we should not assign all the blame to "other countries." It is shared and the reality is in Willabe's statement which could be restated as:
The US can't keep letting major companies walk all over us. We can't afford to. We can't have major companies building huge plants just across the border in Mexico and shipping their product into the US.
Mexico did not decide to start building Chevys in Mexico and ship them here, GM decided to do so with the help of NAFTA. Those major corporations donate huge amounts of money to both parties and pay thousands of lobbyists to wine and dine policy makers. They are not about to lay down and let the landscape be totally disrupted.
Greed rules all of this. Solve greed and you solve the issue. Good luck with that.
We need to stop being suckers.

[Willabe]

The economists who dare to speak out say the same thing: everything should cost more.
I haven't read a single one to the contrary.

Depends where you read/watch your news.

Yes all the economists on the  - left -  are saying that, of coarse they are. Kamala ran on that, "all the experts say tariffs will make everything cost more."

The Dems always find people who they say are "experts." "All the experts say......." But it's not all the so called experts. They only pick the 1's that agree with what the Dems. say.

So old song, anything Trump wants to do the left says it's terrible.

Have to wait and see.

[Willabe]

I think this is true, but we should not assign all the blame to "other countries." It is shared and the reality is in Willabe's statement which could be restated as:
The US can't keep letting major companies walk all over us. We can't afford to. We can't have major companies building huge plants just across the border in Mexico and shipping their product into the US.
Mexico did not decide to start building Chevys in Mexico and ship them here, GM decided to do so with the help of NAFTA.

Ok, yes your right. But the companies are doing all they can to get those companies to invest in their country. It's both.

But it's funny how fast a company and a country can re-think all this when you tell them BOTH "Ok but, if you do that we will put a $$xxxx/xxx% tariff on that production." 

It's just leverage in a negotiation. Why not use it?

But when Trump brings it up, man, ohhhhh noooooo, everything will cost more! AAAHHHHHH!!!!!   

Yet the Dems don't say anything about all the lost jobs, all while saying their the party of the working man, and love labor unions. 

And many other countries have tariffs against the US and large import taxes. So there's a huge trade imbalance. This has to be put back into balance.

And looking at the bigger picture, getting jobs back in the US from other countries, that cause employment to go up, and that then causes wages to go up, and that's what we want right?

So how about we all keep our shirt on and calm down. 

Lets just wait and see if they give in in the negotiations. Then no tariffs.

[Willabe]

Right here, Bob Seger, jobs and American steel!

"Back in 55' we were Makin Thunderbirds."

i=SmYSlqwl3oEIEt7b

The big line moved one mile an hour
So loud it really hurt
The big line moved so loud
It really hurt
Back in '55
We were makin' thunderbirds

We filled conveyors
We met production
Foremen didn't waste words
We met production
Foremen didn't waste words
We were young and proud
We were makin' thunderbirds

We were makin' thunderbirds
We were makin' thunderbirds
They were long and low and sleek and fast
They were all you ever heard
Back in '55
We were makin' thunderbirds

Now the years have flown and the plants have changed
And you're lucky if you work
The big line moves but you're lucky if you work
Back in '55
We were makin' thunderbirds

We were makin' thunderbirds
We were makin' thunderbirds
They were long and low and sleek and fast
They were classic in a word
Back in '55
We were makin' thunderbirds
We were young and proud
We were makin' thunderbirds
We were young and sure
We were makin' thunderbirds

[Willabe]

And Marc Cohn, "Silver Thunderbird"

"You can keep your Eldorado's and the foreign car's absurd. Me I wanna go down, in a Silver Thunderbird."

i=SWCZsXSSCBmk5_i_

Watched it coming up Winslow
Down South Park Boulevard
Yeah it was looking good from tail to hood
Great big fins and painted steel
Man it looked just like the Batmobile
With my old man behind the wheel

Well you could hardly even see him
In all of that chrome
The man with the plan and the pocket comb
But every night it carried him home
And I could hear him sayin'...

Don't gimme no Buick
Son you must take my word
If there's a God in heaven
He's got a Silver Thunderbird

You can keep your Eldorados
And the foreign car's absurd
Me I want to go down
In a Silver Thunderbird

He got up every morning
While i was still asleep
But I remember the sound of him shuffling around
Then right before the crack of dawn
I heard him turn the motor on
But when I got up they were gone

Down the road in the rain and snow
The man and his machine would go
Oh the secrets that old car would know
Sometimes I hear him sayin'...

[acheld]

We should be manufacturing here in the US.  Big time.    For me personally, this is both a national security issue and a jobs for Americans issue. 

Tariffs may help.  It will take much longer than a year to know, however. 

If jobs move back here, and I hope they do, the cost of goods made in the US will go up.   I'm ok with that IF Americans are being paid good wages.

[Willabe]

We should be manufacturing here in the US.  Big time. For me personally, this is both a national security issue and a jobs for Americans issue.

It absolutely is a national security issue. Trump spoke about during covid. 1 major problem is China can shut the door on meds in a heart beat.

Tariffs may help.  It will take much longer than a year to know, however.

No.

Within a year we should have a pretty good idea on where things are and where there going with the tariffs. 

If jobs move back here, and I hope they do, the cost of goods made in the US will go up. I'm ok with that IF Americans are being paid good wages.

It is not cheaper in the long run buying things that only last a few years and you have to buy them again.

How bout a 50's/60's Fender amp that's still going strong compared to a new Fender with cheap Asian made PCB that dies in several years?

[rafe]

Inflation should scare you a lot more than tarriffs, Inflation and taxes (Guess who) I don't think the demand for tubes is going to attract any manufacturers to open a plant in the US, And if they did they could get the quality up ..But...You probably wouldn't save money on tubes ....however, it would provide jobs locally and that's a good thing .....My mom used to tell my brothers and me ...."WE can't afford cheap" I have always bought the best tools, made in the usa  ....And I used them for 50 years and repaired them if a switch failed or the brushes wore out ...... hell I still use some of my grandfather's hand tools .......As far as I am concerned ...Our own government has no regards for our well-being, and it is a lot worse outside our borders, they downright despise us......Trump has a lot more in common with me ( warts, mistakes and all) than any career politician on the hill. They are ticks and leaches ....I'll stop before I tell you how I really feel .....  

[rafe]

They are preparing to expand there product ,,,,The asked for info......I'd like to see American made tubes again for sure ....We should encourage them   


https://www.westernelectric.com/


We Make Electron Tubes — Western Electric - Maker of electron tubes and high fidelity    (survey Page)

[acheld]

As much as I would like to see Western Electric expand their range, they've been talking about this since Russia invaded Ukraine, and maybe before (I wasn't paying attention).   Don't hold your breath.  I think they are happy selling $650 300B tubes. 

[rake]

Some of y'all may not be old enuff to remember when the government passed NAFTA and CAFTA. It essentially shipped manufacturing jobs to Mexico and Central America. It was sold to the public as a great savings to all Americans as our retail prices on the goods would be much lower. And, for a short while they were.
Quality? That was another story.

What people didn't understand was that those great manufacturing jobs were now GONE and flipping fast food burgers would become a "lifelong career"!

I considered buying a new tractor. (20 acre horse farm to take care of). I went and looked at the new Mexican made Juan Deeres. Everything about them looked like cheap crap compared to our 30 year old John Deere. So, I rebuilt our old tractor instead.

In short, buy local. When all the locals are gone the internet stuff will skyrocket!

Don't let the independent guys like Doug disappear! If they do, we'll all pay dearly.

[Brownie]

NOS & KCA, here I come! The best tubes ever, and the 6V6 are probably the most numerous.

[Woodrow F Call]

Tariffs may not benefit Vacuum tubes in the same way it will benefit other manufacturing.

For example, John Deer saying they will move to Mexico.
If you stay here, then Americans have jobs and you avoid tariffs

Over the years, so many industries have moved to other countries
Now it may benefit them to open or re-open plants here where people can have jobs.

You can look up the history on how the US had money to burn when we had tariffs and there was no income taxes.

Companies will just pass the cost to us.

Also see Smoot-Hawley Act. We've done this before.

[Woodrow F Call]

As far as Democrats do this and Republicans do that..... they don't serve us, they serve the companies/elites that give them money.

We really need to remove money from politics in order to bring the power back to the people. Citizens United really screwed over Joe Citizen.

[bmccowan]

Like so many things, the issues of tariffs and free trade are complicated. Probably too complicated for me, but that won't stop me from commenting.
First - support of free trade cannot be assigned to one party. Nixon, Reagan, and both Bushes were supporters, as were Carter, Clinton, and Obama. Both Trump and Biden have been mixed.
It is true that a selling point to the American public was that goods would be less expensive. But another strong selling point was that the jobs lost to overseas workforces were jobs that Americans did not want. Its now clear that that was only partially true, and this country has wasted millions on re-training programs for jobs that were elusive at best.
The effects of free trade agreements are not all bad. They have opened up markets for U.S. manufacturers and agriculture. And, affordable goods were not just temporary outcomes. We all know guitars. How many kids would have received electric guitars for Christmas if the option was US made Fenders, Gibsons, etc. Quality instruments from Mexico, China, Indonesia, etc. are reachable for average families. Yet those in more fortunate economic positions can still go out and buy a US made guitar and even splurge on a custom shop axe if that is their interest. I see this as a positive thing.
And further complications exist due to the origin of parts. US made cars include parts from all over the world. Who draws that line? Who polices the gaming?
Trade rules exist not to save customers money, they exist to increase company profits and expand markets. Good luck changing that. I do not expect that Trump will implement tariffs as promoted during the campaign. It may seem popular, but the monied interests that supported his campaign are visiting him in Mara Lago not to play golf, they are there to convince him to not interrupt their international markets.
Oh wait - the question was will tubes cost us more? I'd say yes, but not due to tariffs, due to political unrest affecting supply chains. 

[acheld]

Well said.

Keep an eye on the Baltic and Red Seas for what is to come . . .

[Willabe]

We really need to remove money from politics in order to bring the power back to the people. Citizens United really screwed over Joe Citizen.

Spoken like a true liberal House and Senate Dem up on Capital Hill.

Yet they spent over $1.8 billion on Kamala and still lost. And Citizens United had nothing to do with her loss. Dem's spent ~1.8 billion, Trump, 800 million.

So Ok, lets take away Citizens United.

But to make it fair, now lets take away these too;

1. The Millions from the unions that's in the Dems back pocket. That's been going on for decades. And it's the Union bosses that decide how much and who gets it, not the union members. Detroit auto workers supported Trump this past election but the UAW, United Auto Workers bosses refused to endorse Trump. They just didn't endorse Kamala.

The last time the UAW didn't endorse a candidate was in 1976.   

2. The free advertising that Dems get from the media, CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, etc., including 'The View' on ABC, most of the countries major newspapers, the vast majority of the press, which has been at the very least 85% up to 98% positive for the Dems and 85% up to 98% negative for the Republicans on any given day, there's plenty of research on these numbers. And it absolutely is free donations to the Dems. This has been going on for decades too.

3. Put an end to the vast majority of the countries Universities and Collages where professors and teachers are backing and teaching the Dems far left liberal, woke thinking. Which is not what their supposed to be teaching. Universities and Collages used to teach students subject matter on a course like math, writing, science, etc. And how to think for yourself. Now they wont let you even discuss conservative or pro Israel points of view, they censor speech on campus.

And our government is supporting many of these Universities and Collages even though many have billions in endowments/donations sitting in bank accounts.

So the US tax payers are paying for, along with the students parents, to have the students indoctrinated in liberal and woke thought. Not what these Universities and Collages are for.

But they've been takin over, in part because of tenure. That's got to end too. According to polls political donation for University and Collage professors and teachers show at the very least 85% donate to Democrats.   

4. Stop Google, Face Book, Siri, all 3 and others, have greatly suppressed/taken down any Republican posts/information. Twitter was part of that, but not any longer thankfully. That's why the Dem's were so upset at Musk buying Twitter. Wreaked their monopoly/strangle hold on social media. 

This all adds up to billions of dollars in contributions for the Dems, it's rigged in favor of the Dem's on several fronts. Has been for decades.   

The Dem's say we have to get rid of Citizens United knowing that they have all the $$ resources that I listed above and more.   

[dwinstonwood]

In 1984 I had a part-time job making a little bit above average for that line of work: $8.50hr.

It's 2024 and I personally know young people (around the age I was in '84) making about the same per hour today. Forty years later and wages in many sectors have remained flatlined.

Inflation figures are meaningless without taking into account wages. The cost of goods usually goes up over time. But, unless wages also rise - as they should - the cost of goods can be spun by politicians and pundits into taking on the false appearance of inflation running rampant. When part of what's happening is that greed at the top is holding wages down while keep more for themselves.

I want good manufacturing jobs to return to the US, too. But, most of us will have to adjust to living with less stuff since American-made things will cost more. We've been conditioned into tolerating frozen wages through gaining access to cheap import goods sold at giant chain stores. That has fooled a lot of people into thinking that they actually do earn enough to buy lots of stuff. That's a gross simplification, but it's an unsustainable trend. Behind all the smoke and mirrors and red herrings, it really does come down to one thing for most working people: wages.

We should be making things here, and not just operating cash registers for giant chain stores, ringing up cheap import goods for each other at $8.50hr.

[Woodrow F Call]

We really need to remove money from politics in order to bring the power back to the people. Citizens United really screwed over Joe Citizen.

Spoken like a true liberal House and Senate Dem up on Capital Hill.

Yet they spent over $1.8 billion on Kamala and still lost. And Citizens United had nothing to do with her loss. Dem's spent ~1.8 billion, Trump, 800 million.

So Ok, lets take away Citizens United.

But to make it fair, now lets take away these too;

1. The Millions from the unions that's in the Dems back pocket. That's been going on for decades. And it's the Union bosses that decide how much and who gets it, not the union members. Detroit auto workers supported Trump this past election but the UAW, United Auto Workers bosses refused to endorse Trump. They just didn't endorse Kamala.

The last time the UAW didn't endorse a candidate was in 1976.   

2. The free advertising that Dems get from the media, CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, etc., including 'The View' on ABC, most of the countries major newspapers, the vast majority of the press, which has been at the very least 85% up to 98% positive for the Dems and 85% up to 98% negative for the Republicans on any given day, there's plenty of research on these numbers. And it absolutely is free donations to the Dems. This has been going on for decades too.

3. Put an end to the vast majority of the countries Universities and Collages where professors and teachers are backing and teaching the Dems far left liberal, woke thinking. Which is not what their supposed to be teaching. Universities and Collages used to teach students subject matter on a course like math, writing, science, etc. And how to think for yourself. Now they wont let you even discuss conservative or pro Israel points of view, they censor speech on campus.

And our government is supporting many of these Universities and Collages even though many have billions in endowments/donations sitting in bank accounts.

So the US tax payers are paying for, along with the students parents, to have the students indoctrinated in liberal and woke thought. Not what these Universities and Collages are for.

But they've been takin over, in part because of tenure. That's got to end too. According to polls political donation for University and Collage professors and teachers show at the very least 85% donate to Democrats.   

4. Stop Google, Face Book, Siri, all 3 and others, have greatly suppressed/taken down any Republican posts/information. Twitter was part of that, but not any longer thankfully. That's why the Dem's were so upset at Musk buying Twitter. Wreaked their monopoly/strangle hold on social media. 

This all adds up to billions of dollars in contributions for the Dems, it's rigged in favor of the Dem's on several fronts. Has been for decades.   

The Dem's say we have to get rid of Citizens United knowing that they have all the $$ resources that I listed above and more.   

Do you understand how Republicans get their money? It's the same.

The only problem is that corporations/elites essentially get more votes than you.

What bmccowen posted is right. The reason we are there is because of all of the money that is put into politics buying favor instead of doing what's right for you and me.


Edit: I'm perfectly fine with finding a way to eliminate "help" for any party..... I kinda think we should eliminate parties all together.

We need representation of the people.

[uki]

I kinda think we should eliminate parties all together.

We need representation of the people.

[Latole]

 The reason we are there is because of all of the money that is put into politics buying favor instead of doing what's right for you and me.


Edit: I'm perfectly fine with finding a way to eliminate "help" for any party..... I kinda think we should eliminate parties all together.

We need representation of the people.

You are 100% right

[Willabe]

Inflation figures are meaningless without taking into account wages. The cost of goods usually goes up over time. But, unless wages also rise - as they should....

And they are not meaningless, they still matter, there's just more to consider.

It's called "the cost of living." And as you know, it's different in different parts of the country, state by state, city by city, etc.

The cost of goods usually goes up over time. But, unless wages also rise - as they should - the cost of goods can be spun by politicians and pundits into taking on the false appearance of inflation running rampant. When part of what's happening is that greed at the top is holding wages down while keep more for themselves.

The inflation we experienced was real and was running rampant.

Your saying what the Biden/Kamala Harris admin kept telling saying. Telling the people it wasn't as bad as we thought and it was greedy companies causing it.

Under Biden, inflation hit it's peak in June 2022, @ 9.1%, highest in over 40 years. And they had to jack the interest rates up to their, Fed, target range of 5.25% to 5.50% by mid-2023.

This marked the highest interest rates since the 2008 financial crisis. Mortgage rates also surged, peaking around 7% for 30-year fixed loans in late 2022.

Because of this, in large part, people can't buy a house, still. And builders can't barrow to build because of high interest rates, big problem.

All of this is inflation running rampant.   

When part of what's happening is that greed at the top is holding wages down while keep more for themselves.

Behind all the smoke and mirrors and red herrings, it really does come down to one thing for most working people: wages.

It's not greed, it's the economy and supply and demand, too many workers, because of the Biden/Harris admin. policies. They screwed up the economy and their blaming everyone/anything else as what caused it. American people didn't believe them, Kamala lost.

To get wages to go up you have to have more jobs than workers. Was starting to happen under Trump.

If you can't get workers, you have to raise the salary your offering to attract applicants. Simple as that, supply and demand. The Biden admin. has let in ~20 million at the border and that's those they know about, doesn't include the 'got aways'.

Too many workers now for wages to go up. Some/many say the major companies worked on/lobbied/donated big money to the Biden/Harris/Dems to open up the borders for cheap labor.

Seems pretty clear that happened. Corporation's get what they want and some day the Dem's think they'll get all those new voters. Win, win for them but is devastating the country.   

... most of us will have to adjust to living with less stuff since American-made things will cost more. .....  That has fooled a lot of people into thinking that they actually do earn enough to buy lots of stuff.

We should be making things here, ...

Not necessarily. It's not automatic.

If we start making things here again, that means new jobs, that means money to afford new American made things. That is if we can get many of the new illegal migrants back out of the country. 

And if the American made things are quility they will last much longer and we wont have to re-buy the same thing every 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 years. Like it used to be.

[Willabe]

Yet they spent over $1.8 billion on Kamala and still lost. And Citizens United had nothing to do with her loss. Dem's spent ~1.8 billion, Trump, 800 million.

See these numbers?          ^  ^  ^  ^  ^  ^ ^

Do you understand how Republicans get their money? It's the same.

It's absolutely NOT the same as I listed for the Dems. 

Your ignoring everything I outlined in my post.

Do the Republicans have the UAW and teachers union and other unions in their back pocket? No they don't. 

[shooter]

unions in their back pocket? No they don't.

 
nope, they got all the Billionaires, who needs a union when you own the companies.
guvmint is the problem, left, right, up yours, it's all the same corruption


back to my simple n humble analog life, now that i'm all caught up 

[jb83]

The economists who dare to speak out say the same thing: everything should cost more.
I haven't read a single one to the contrary.

Depends where you read/watch your news.

Yes all the economists on the  - left -  are saying that, of coarse they are. Kamala ran on that, "all the experts say tariffs will make everything cost more."

The Dems always find people who they say are "experts." "All the experts say......." But it's not all the so called experts. They only pick the 1's that agree with what the Dems. say.

So old song, anything Trump wants to do the left says it's terrible.

Have to wait and see.

You might benefit from listening to Michael Lewis’s podcast “against the rules”.  One of the seasons talks about how Americans have moved away from trusting actual experts to instead going with their “gut feelings” and anecdotal experiences.  It’s basically a way of ignoring very scary and inconvenient realities. 

We Americans are very good at ignoring the speeding train that is coming right for us until we are getting run over.

Finding experts that tell you what you want to hear makes you feel warm and fuzzy in the near term but can have devastating consequences for us all in the long run. 

Long story short: Beware ignorant fools who are all bluster telling you that they are going to fix all your problems. 

[Woodrow F Call]

Yet they spent over $1.8 billion on Kamala and still lost. And Citizens United had nothing to do with her loss. Dem's spent ~1.8 billion, Trump, 800 million.

See these numbers?          ^  ^  ^  ^  ^  ^ ^

Do you understand how Republicans get their money? It's the same.

It's absolutely NOT the same as I listed for the Dems. 

Your ignoring everything I outlined in my post.

Do the Republicans have the UAW and teachers union and other unions in their back pocket? No they don't.

Yes it is. They just have different groups.... churches, gun rights groups, fox News (which has a bigger audience than the others... maybe even combined).... heck I work with unions and most lean right.

Trump had Bezos and Musk..... probably had a few more of the richest behind him.

[Woodrow F Call]

It's not greed, it's the economy and supply and demand,

I wanted to respond to this point.

You had CEOs from oil companies talking in shareholder meetings about  why they aren't exploring and drilling more..... their responses were "to protect shareholder value" while raking in record profits.🤔

You have grocery conglomerates posting record profits. 🤔

I know how much better my 401k is looking even though there is rampant inflation and the economy is terrible. 🤔

If you don't think greed has anything to do with this, you really need to take another look without bias.

[Latole]

Citizens were sick and tired of being ruled by an aristocracy or an elite, but they elected a different kind of elite..........

[bmccowan]

The reason I "liked" Shooter's comment is that he refuses to fall into the "Oh yeah, but what about what Kamala did. Oh yeah, but what about what Trump did" gambit.
I am not a member of either party. My state allows us to participate in the primary of our choice. On some subjects I am with the Dems, on others I am with the Rs. And I am not very predictable. I think that people who side 100% for either party are not thinking for themselves. Those here who are fighting the strongest are refusing to even consider that the other side might make some good points. No wonder that we can find no common ground. As soon as an election is over, the goal of the losers is to plot their resurrection, not to help the people.
Both party's leadership love Citizens United (talk about an oxymoron) The negative comments coming from the Ds is lip service. They love the money. And don't forget that a recent (about 10 years) change to election law allows candidates to keep leftover funds that have been raised. And recent Supreme Court actions have normalized bribery. "Hell, if Clarence can take that graft, why not me."
So there is too much monied influence in politics - on both sides. We, the populace are being played for suckers. The proof is in the numbers - we middle class plug away putting money into our 401Ks. The ruling class tells us to work hard, keep your money in those mutual funds, meanwhile they trade constantly at the margins, sell and rebuy the losers in 30 days in the biggest tax scam out there. They get outrageously wealthy while we hope that we don't lose our homes to pay for our asswipe nursing home. The wealth disparity is killing our future.

[shooter]

the art of war; "don't interfere when your enemy is fighting itself"


guvmint has convinced us to fight each other while they nips on some single malt n smoke $20 cigars, paid for by us
there is no solution, 2 people had the world with just 1 rule and they f't it up, 8 billion now, like herding cats in a hurricane   

[jb83]

We really need to remove money from politics in order to bring the power back to the people. Citizens United really screwed over Joe Citizen.

Spoken like a true liberal House and Senate Dem up on Capital Hill.

Yet they spent over $1.8 billion on Kamala and still lost. And Citizens United had nothing to do with her loss. Dem's spent ~1.8 billion, Trump, 800 million.

So Ok, lets take away Citizens United.

But to make it fair, now lets take away these too;

1. The Millions from the unions that's in the Dems back pocket. That's been going on for decades. And it's the Union bosses that decide how much and who gets it, not the union members. Detroit auto workers supported Trump this past election but the UAW, United Auto Workers bosses refused to endorse Trump. They just didn't endorse Kamala.

The last time the UAW didn't endorse a candidate was in 1976.   

2. The free advertising that Dems get from the media, CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, etc., including 'The View' on ABC, most of the countries major newspapers, the vast majority of the press, which has been at the very least 85% up to 98% positive for the Dems and 85% up to 98% negative for the Republicans on any given day, there's plenty of research on these numbers. And it absolutely is free donations to the Dems. This has been going on for decades too.

3. Put an end to the vast majority of the countries Universities and Collages where professors and teachers are backing and teaching the Dems far left liberal, woke thinking. Which is not what their supposed to be teaching. Universities and Collages used to teach students subject matter on a course like math, writing, science, etc. And how to think for yourself. Now they wont let you even discuss conservative or pro Israel points of view, they censor speech on campus.

And our government is supporting many of these Universities and Collages even though many have billions in endowments/donations sitting in bank accounts.

So the US tax payers are paying for, along with the students parents, to have the students indoctrinated in liberal and woke thought. Not what these Universities and Collages are for.

But they've been takin over, in part because of tenure. That's got to end too. According to polls political donation for University and Collage professors and teachers show at the very least 85% donate to Democrats.   

4. Stop Google, Face Book, Siri, all 3 and others, have greatly suppressed/taken down any Republican posts/information. Twitter was part of that, but not any longer thankfully. That's why the Dem's were so upset at Musk buying Twitter. Wreaked their monopoly/strangle hold on social media. 

This all adds up to billions of dollars in contributions for the Dems, it's rigged in favor of the Dem's on several fronts. Has been for decades.   

The Dem's say we have to get rid of Citizens United knowing that they have all the $$ resources that I listed above and more.   

I’m a democrat and want the corporate takeover of our elections to stop, regardless of the candidate.  The guy I’m assuming you voted for is Musk’s little hand-puppet.  Musk spent $250 million (a pittance for him) to buy power over the executive and legislative branches.  I didn’t vote for an unaccountable, unstable foreigner to run my country.  That should enrage every American.

[Willabe]

You might benefit from listening to Michael Lewis’s podcast “against the rules”.  One of the seasons talks about how Americans have moved away from trusting actual experts to instead going with their “gut feelings” and anecdotal experiences.  It’s basically a way of ignoring very scary and inconvenient realities. 

Finding experts that tell you what you want to hear makes you feel warm and fuzzy in the near term but can have devastating consequences for us all in the long run.

No I don't think so, not listening to a progressive liberal.

What "actual experts" according to who?" Dem's are famous for saying "expert's say" then point to someone who's not an expert but agrees with the Dem's, they do it all the time.

Your clearly insulting me in a back handed way and it's disrespectful. Knock it off. 

[Willabe]

Yes it is. They just have different groups.... churches, gun rights groups, fox News (which has a bigger audience than the others... maybe even combined)....

What you list doesn't come close to the groups I listed, not even close.

Trump had Bezos and Musk..... probably had a few more of the richest behind him. .... heck I work with unions and most lean right.

The heck they do. I spent over 55 years in Chicago and all the unions and members and they were everywhere, were left leaning. Most unions lean left and have for decades, that's well known. Some union members lean right, but it's the bosses, which I wrote and your ignoring, that control where the money goes to.

These are the numbers;  Dem's spent ~1.8 billion, Trump, 800 million. Look it up.

Musk didn't change that.

Bezos did not back Trump and still doesn't.

AI;

To clarify the relationship between Jeff Bezos and Donald Trump, consider the following points:

1.    Jeff Bezos has publicly criticized Donald Trump on multiple occasions.

2.    Bezos, as the founder of Amazon, has often been at odds with Trump over various policies.

3.    Trump has made negative comments about Bezos, particularly regarding Amazon's business practices.

4.    There is no evidence that Bezos has financially supported Trump or his campaigns.

5.    Bezos has focused his philanthropic efforts on issues like climate change and education, rather than political endorsements.

6.    The relationship between Bezos and Trump is characterized more by conflict than support.

[Willabe]

It's not greed, it's the economy and supply and demand,

1st off your totally leaving out the rest of the "it's the economy and supply and demand supply" reasoning I explained.

You had CEOs from oil companies talking in shareholder meetings about why they aren't exploring and drilling more..... their responses were "to protect shareholder value" while raking in record profits.

Where's the proof of this? It's just left talking points.

The Dem's cover this up, many of the drilling permits they have are not worth anything because other government agencies won't give the other permits to clear for and put in the roads to get to the drilling sites. Then the Dem's say no more drilling permits until they use the 1's they already have. Pretty slick trick. 

You have grocery conglomerates posting record profits.

Where's the proof, this is another Dem lie to cover up how they wrecked the economy. Grocery stores run on pennies on the dollar profit margins. They are not price gouging.

And lets see, in the last 4 years, they opened the border and let in ~20 million people and that doesn't include the 'got aways', could be 25, 30, 35 million? So that's a lot more moths to feed, profits should be up. 

I know how much better my 401k is looking even though there is rampant inflation and the economy is terrible.

So your denying the 40 year high record inflation and the economy is bad?

We have record credit card debt and many have had to go into their retirement savings to pay their bills. There have many articles in the papers and on line about this. 

We got both - the rampant inflation and a terrible economy -  and the rising stock market because of the trillions of dollars the Dem's released into the economy. The market loves the extra money, but the economy doesn't.
 

If you don't think greed has anything to do with this, you really need to take another look without bias.

Oh, there's plenty of greed here, but it's the greed of the Dem's who were in charge who, with the help of their buddies the press, scared the living daylights out of the people about covid, and  told them they needed the governments help and released trillions of dollars into the economy to pay off their backers and get more campaign donations. And round and round it goes.

Your telling me I'm biased but everything your saying is biased and off the mark Dem talking points.

[Willabe]

I’m a democrat and want the corporate takeover of our elections to stop, regardless of the candidate. The guy I’m assuming you voted for is Musk’s little hand-puppet. Musk spent $250 million (a pittance for him) to buy power over the executive and legislative branches. I didn’t vote for an unaccountable, unstable foreigner to run my country.  That should enrage every American.

The Dem's spent ~1.8 billion, Trump, 800 million.

And you think trump is Musk's hand puppet.

The left has been trying to start a rift between Trump and Musk since Trump won the election. All the left news shows are saying it daily.

There is no evidence at this point of Musk telling Trump what to do.

And when your talking with fellow Americans, it's not 'your' country it's all of ours.

[bmccowan]

You guys are doing a good job of proving Shooter's point;

guvmint has convinced us to fight each other while they nips on some single malt n smoke $20 cigars, paid for by us

And political discussion is good for us. It's how we learn how others think. No reason for anybody to be offended. After all, it ain't capacitors.

[shooter]

 


I'm having fun watching Ketamine man flame out his neuro-links over other peoples deferring opinions
"...The folly of man"