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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: mini D-HRM amp  (Read 36129 times)

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Offline tubenit

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mini D-HRM amp
« on: April 14, 2010, 05:17:43 pm »
Hey guys,

I am aware that we like to occasionally color outside the lines and try some innovative amp ideas................ such as DaGeezer's amp ideas.

So, I occasionally visit other amp forums and saw this amp and sound clips on the Amp Garage under the D_mble discussion. I was VERY impressed with the sound clips and would like to build the amp.  Mat (the designer of the Mini-HRM EL84) and Colossal (who drew the schematic of the amp) both gave us permission to post an editable schematic and layout version of it.

Colossal occasionally visits the Hoffman forum and was aware of DaGeezer's Little Wing & HoSo56 ...... and some of the other innovative builds here. Anyhow Colossal and Mat both seem to be very cordial individuals and I am grateful for their willingness to share this. Nice of them to do so. Check out the soundclips.

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8927753

I plan to build a 5881 version of the amp and maybe get something around 10-12 watts which is a little more than the 56T at 7-9watts.  DaGeezer is going to do his own version of this amp & I'll let him tell his own idea about that.

Editable schematic and layout here:
http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=9149.new#new

With respect, Tubenit
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 06:45:36 am by tubenit »

Offline PRR

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Re: mini-HRM amp
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2010, 07:10:32 pm »
The transformer 190-0-190 spec and the FWB rectifier don't seem to lead to 270V DC.

Offline Geezer

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Re: mini-HRM amp
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2010, 07:13:38 pm »
Mine is going to be a 2x5881/6L6 version (Parallel SE) with one of the tube cathodes on a switch for "half power".

I will post the layout & schem as soon as I reverse the layout.......I am building it in a Marshall style head format (wanting the controls to go from left to right, chassis mounted on the bottom of the cab) & did the layout the wrong way around....DOH!  :rolleyes:
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Offline DummyLoad

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Re: mini-HRM amp
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2010, 07:28:52 pm »
The transformer 190-0-190 spec and the FWB rectifier don't seem to lead to 270V DC.

run 1/2 secondary to FWB it sims close 270...

Offline tubenit

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Re: mini-HRM amp
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2010, 08:14:46 pm »
Reportedly the actual amp PT is 200-0-200 and the plate was measured around 270v per the original builder using a FWB rectifier.

190v X 1.4 = 266v

I used a 250-250 PT with no center tap on an amp yrs ago with a rectifier like that and it was 350v on plates.

With respect, Tubenit

Offline zendragon63

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Re: mini-HRM amp
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2010, 12:21:35 am »
Hey Tubenit and all, I stumbled onto this as well on TAG a couple of week ago and had to say that the sound clip was pretty convincing. I always thought that the higher preamp voltages, the balance adjust PI and a relatively clean PA was what really define alot of the *umble operating phenom so it surprised me. Hearing is believing. What do I know. :smiley: FWIW, I had rewired my Honeytone SE KT66 very similar to this a few months ago--hard wired the overdrive and ratio values to my taste--and love the sound and feel but it sure don't have that smooth bloom into harmonic trait that this one has (rather, an edgier groooowl). There is so much tone shaping going on in the HRM. Thanks for going the distance, getting the permission to disseminate here. Certainly will be interested to hear what you and Geezer get with a SE 5881. Regards

dennis
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Offline topbrent

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Re: mini-HRM amp
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2010, 04:07:05 am »
This would be a really cool project to stuff in a Epiphone Valve Jr chassis.

Reuse the stock PT and get a beefier OT.

Offline Geezer

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Re: mini-HRM amp
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2010, 04:48:46 am »
This would be a really cool project to stuff in a Epiphone Valve Jr chassis.

Reuse the stock PT and get a beefier OT.

Yes, in-deedy!

I'm putting all the HRM tonestack controls on the front panel of mine (tweaker that I am, & the chassis/front panel is large @ 17" x 3")
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Offline tubenit

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2010, 06:10:02 am »
I added an editable SCH layout version for a D-5881 SE in the SCH library.

I am planning to install mini-pots on top of the chassis for the HRM adjustments. The pot shafts will be easily accessible.

My T-Lite head has a velcro'd front panel that stays on great but is easily removed by simply pulling it off with your hand. It allows me to change tubes etc very easily.

Just sharing some more ideas on a way to approach this.

With respect, Tubenit
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 06:45:58 am by tubenit »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2010, 02:39:58 pm »
I can't really comment on the preamp design. It's a 4-stage gain machine, and looks good, with the possibility of minor tweaks after construction to make it sounds exactly the way you want.

I agree with PRR that the bridge rectifier along with 190-0-190 or 300-0-300 is confusing. If you plan on only using 1 side of a PT secondary (i.e., only from CT to one outside tap), you could do that, but you can't draw any more current than the transformer was passing when using the whole winding with a full-wave rectifier. So 190 -> bridge = ~270v, or 100-0-100 -> bridge w/ CT not used = ~280v.

You may want to ask the original designers if 270v for the preamp helped the character of the distortion.

Oddly, my biggest concern is that the effects loop is not really practical or functional. It's a good idea to have it at the end of the preamp chain to capture the sound created by the preamp, but needs to be knocked down to about 1/200th the size (guessing 20v to about 100mV) for feeding into pedals meant to gulp guitar-signals, then will likely need to be boosted back up to drive the output tube.

I think I see why you asked about 6L6 ratings/cathode resistors at 270v in the other thread.

How close can you get to 300v supply? That requires rectifying about 200-215v, and whether you use a full-wave or bridge will be determined by whether you have a 200v secondary or a 200-0-200v secondary. Assume the plate and screen will both be at 300v. For 5881, 25w/300v = 83mA, and using the triode curves (triode operation is with screen connected to plate, so both have the same voltage on them), you get 80mA with 300v on the plate at 20v of bias. Let's guess 3mA screen current at idle based on some of the data sheet conditions, so 20v/.083A = ~241 ohms, so 250 ohms is the closest standard value. Dissipation in this resistor is 1.6w, so pick a 5w resistor. Cheating from the data sheet, optimum plate load looks to be anything from 4-5k.

20v of bias means you want the preamp to be able to easily deliver at least this much. I plugged the tonestack values into  the Tone Stack Calculator, and the average loss for settings midway up seems to be about 10dB, which is a reduction to about 1/3 the incoming signal. So we need at least 60v of swing from the stage before the tonestack (OD channel) and preferably more. The stage ahead of the tonestack looks to be plenty capable of doing this, and all the interstage volume pots should help you set an overall gain you like.

All-in-all, it looks good. I'd be mainly looking to be sure the PT and power supply were right, or simply grafting this preamp onto an existing amp's power section. The 269EX doesn't have the current rating to power a 5881 or 6L6; it is rated at 71mA and we'll need more than that at idle. Hammond does have a 200v CT (100-0-100) transformer rated at 115mA, but the only filament winding is 5v 2A. But they also rate their products for 115v on the primary. If your wall outlet puts 124v on this transformer, you get about 215v CT and about 5.4v on the filament winding. For the high voltage winding, ignore the CT and tape it off, and and use a bridge rectifier; for the filament winding, the voltage is about 14% low but you also won't draw the full 2A rated for the winding. The voltage will probably end up a little higher than spec, just because you'll only pull about half the rated current. Either way, it will light your tubes and work just fine. The transformer is the 263AX and I've seen it priced around $40 plus shipping. I did not see a comparable Edcor transformer that didn't have a 230v or 240v primary.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 02:47:03 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline tubenit

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2010, 03:03:53 pm »
Thanks HBP!  Always great hearing from you!

Looks like I need a different type solid state rectifier with a PT having a center tap?

I plan to use an old Dano Centurian PT that is 300-0-300 that ran a p/p pair of 6V6's so I should be in good shape. I can either use a GZ34, 5V4 or go the solid state rectifier route (if I add a 5v trannie). It will have enough ma to handle a single 5881.

The effects loop is like the one I have on all 3 of my amps (going into an LTPI) including the T-Lite. I just use it only for a Boss digital delay. It works quite well, IMO in that capacity. If it doesn't work on this amp, I can very easily remove it. I should add that Mat (the amp builder/designer) has the passive effects loop in his amp.

I've got some other options for a PT if needed also. I appreciate the input. The sound clips of the amp the other guy actually built with EL84's sound really good to me

With respect, Tubenit
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 06:36:39 pm by tubenit »

Offline mtman5821

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2010, 05:28:30 pm »
I also really liked the tones and the potential in this amp!   In reading the thread at Amp Garage, Mat (the designer) stated that when he tried to crank it up in a band situation, it didn't sound nearly as good.   I also think it was stated that all his clips were recorded at low volume so I believe the EL84 power distortion is not contributing in a good way to the tone.  I also remember reading about how the D'Lite came to be and it was stated by the designers that there was a very significant difference in tone between the Deluxe OT and a Vibrolux OT, with the larger being much better, guessing because of lack of OT saturation? 

I surmise from all this that it is desired to keep the power amp as clean as possible. I think Tubenit and Dageezer are on the right track using 6L6/5881 for the output tube to get the D sound at higher volume.  Is the 6L6 the "cleanest" choice?

Dageezer, how are you running parallel SE?  Are you using two 5K OT's or a single 2.5K OT?  I can't find a SE OT bigger than 25W. 



Offline Geezer

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2010, 08:41:24 pm »
Quote
Dageezer, how are you running parallel SE?  Are you using two 5K OT's or a single 2.5K OT?
 

a single 2.5K OT

Quote
I can't find a SE OT bigger than 25W. 


That's plenty big for 2x6L6's SE parallel......I'm even using a 15w unit (Hammond 125ESE) in a 2x5881 SE amp with no problems at all.
The one I'm using in the HRM SE is a Weber 25w unit, just because I already have it here on the shelf.

Geezer
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Offline DummyLoad

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2010, 10:10:31 pm »
have you guys kicked around any thoughts using the 6550/KT88 family?  :smiley:

edit: lurking again. reading the datasheets on the 6GM5/7591 family - w/ 300V Va/Vg2 you can make 11W in SE with a single tube into a 3KΩ load.  interesting... only 10Vpk required to drive to full power. 2 tubes in || SE would make ~~20W into 1K5Ω load. 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 10:25:42 pm by ISOTone »

Offline echuta13

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2010, 11:43:38 pm »
I like the idea of a 6550/KT88 to get more output/headroom.  Probably be a good fit for a design like this too.
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Offline Geezer

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2010, 05:13:19 am »
Quote
have you guys kicked around any thoughts using the 6550/KT88 family?

Yes....I'm using a big PT intended for a Super Reverb & so will have the capability to run pretty much any tube(s) I want.
AX84 has done work on this>>>
http://www.ax84.com/static/sel/AX84_SEL_080729.pdf

Would a KT88 be "happy" @ the same loads as a 6L6??

EDIT: In doing a little investigation, it appears the 6550/KT88's want to see roughly 1/2 the load of the 6L6 family......am I correct??
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 05:34:17 am by Geezer »
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Offline DummyLoad

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2010, 10:49:10 am »
6550/KT88's want to see roughly 1/2 the load of the 6L6 family

short answer yes, but still B+ dependent...

6550 - with 250V Va/Vg2 and 1K5 Ω load makes 12.5W... run it at 270V will be fine - 1/2 the secondary load on your 2K5Ω OT for 1K2Ω...  or run 2 6550 in || SE @ 270V and run OT as 2K5Ω - should make about 18W.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 01:27:30 pm by ISOTone »

Offline tubenit

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2010, 07:06:01 am »
A couple of questions for a single 5881 SE .............

What impedence do I want for the primary going into the OT (SE)?

This will be going into a cab with a 8 ohm Emminence Red,White & Blues.
What secondary impedence would I use?  16 ohm?

Thanks, Tubenit
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 03:06:22 pm by tubenit »

Offline Geezer

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2010, 01:10:10 pm »
Quote
This will be going into a cab with a 8k  Emminence Red,White & Blues.

Do you mean 8Ω?

Quote
What impedence do I want for the primary going into the OT (SE)?

I use 5k as a starting point....2.5k for 2x tubes parallel.
Then (with the multi-tapped secondary OT's like the big 25w Weber I have, or a 125ESE), you can try different taps & see what "sounds" best.

I know the data sheets say this-or-that for different "optimal" primary imps (depending on your plate voltage), but I just use my ears, & it always has been the 5k for a single tube that works best (for me).
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Offline tubenit

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2010, 03:09:10 pm »
Yeah, I meant 8 ohm (or 8R) not 8k. Sorry.

So (as a starting place)  try  a 5k primary with 16 ohm secondary?  or 8 ohm secondary?

Thanks, Tubenit

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2010, 03:27:55 pm »
5k primary, 8Ω secondary for 1x5881.

If you are using the 125ESE, it would be the Yellow wire for the speaker tap.

For 2x5881, it would be 2.5k primary into 8, you would use the white wire.

BTW, just sent you an email response to the schem/layout question.

G

« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 03:36:10 pm by Geezer »
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Offline tubenit

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2010, 04:31:31 pm »
Excellent!  Thank you!

With respect, Tubenit

Offline jojokeo

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2010, 06:40:34 am »
This is an eerie coincidence in that just today I stumbled onto Dumble @ the AG forum only after I was cleaning out some old links & realized I had an account set up there a long time ago. I check an e/m response here then notice the Dumble thread that's just started w/ Geezer planning away, tubenit conjuring up ideas w/ schematics & layouts...you guys are amazing. I mean that as a total complement.

I d/l'd many of the pictures & schems there and found a number of interesting things from confirming tranny positions to his way of layouts. That letter w/ his price list & security agreement demonstrates his ego & eccentricism.

I just see where he's cascading two extra gain stages instead of using a CF like we've been doing lately similar to the HoSo and 56T to name a few. With a few extra tone shaping trimmers and bright caps w/ switches, I don't see where there's a really big deal or secret or magic to the tone associated w/ those amps? Am I wrong?

I actually kind of like the idea that Merlin has in alternating the bias stages btwn hot & cold to produce cut-off & grid current limiting generating sustain & harmonic complexity along the way. Are there some amp examples w/ soundbites for this kind of design & tone to hear as a comparrison?

Is this (harmonic content) why geezer & others are going w/ SE amp designs for this dumble idea? If so, I thought that a clean PA was what contributed to & was sought after for this type of amp emphasizing the preamp gain? What about the issue associated noise inherent w/ SE amps & high gain stages?
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Offline tubenit

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2010, 07:44:28 am »
Quote
What about the issue associated noise inherent w/ SE amps & high gain stages?


I am planning on having a quiet amp. What & where  have you heard about this as an issue?

With respect, Tubenit

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2010, 11:28:07 am »
If you are talking about the "single-ended hummmmm", then that can easily be eliminated with proper filtering of the power supply. I use a "pi" filter on my SE amps & don't have a problem with hum or noise.
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Offline tubenit

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2010, 11:42:27 am »
Here is DaGeezer's version of the mini-D HRM.  The editable schematic is in the SCH Library.

With respect, Tubenit

Offline PRR

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2010, 10:55:34 pm »
> Would a KT88 be "happy" @ the same loads as a 6L6??

At the same voltage and current, yes.

> appears the 6550/KT88's want to see roughly 1/2 the load of the 6L6 family......am I correct??

6550 is a much bigger and more expensive tube than 6L6. Don't use it unless you need it; if you need it, USE it. That means working it harder than the ~~24W diss which is safe for 6L6GC. Raise the voltage or raise the current. A hard-worked 6L6 already likes 400V, which is close-enough to the usual 450V cap rating. To get a 6550 to "more", you would typically leave the voltage similar and increase the current. Then reduce the load impedance to take advantage of the higher current.

As a rough-cut: find a voltage and current which does not need any exotic parts (my 560 Volt 6550 amp's power supply was an awkward stack of 350V caps) and which hits your intended dissipation (NOS and good Russian 6550 will stand an honest 40 Watts). Then divide voltage by current and call it your load.

Most of the classic audio tubes WILL make large output with not a lot over 250V. Unlike fix-bias push-pull amps, over-volting does not significantly increase power. (My 560V 6550 amp would not hit the claim in the 6550 sheet for 400V supply.)

Using an example above: 300v and 83mA gives 25 Watts, OK for 6L6GC KT66 EL34 etc. 300V/83mA= 3,614 ohms, try 4K load.

Using Hammond 125ESE, 2.5K/5K/10K and a 6550:

324V 130mA is 42 Watts and 2.5K load
458V 92mA is 42 Watts and 5K load
648V 65mA is 42 Watts and 10K load

That "42W" is dissipation, idle heat. The actual audio output will be 0.25 to 0.4 times the dissipation, 10W to 17W. I've had 13W clean 17W not-too-bent from a 6550 at 39 Watts.
 
Since 125ESE is rated 80mA max, the first plan is over-spec. The second can be fudged to 80mA 400V 32 Watts (and IMHO 450V 90mA will be fine also, assuming 500V caps are handy). I've tried the 600V 60mA 10K zone and do not think you want to go there.

> I can't find a SE OT bigger than 25W.

There's a 75W in Hammond. Costs $300.

The real deal is: you do not want to LIFT an SE amp at 25W or above. Figure iron at 5 watts per pound. The OT should weigh 5 pounds. The PT needs 7.5 pounds for plate power, and a few pounds more for heaters. Such heavy lumps will need a sturdy chassis. SE needs good filtering, and at this power level that adds significant weight. You might note the OT and PT weigh more than the iron for a 40W Bassman.

Maybe you can't put a price/weight limit on "tone". But an 80 pound beast will limit how many places you will actually use that tone.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 11:03:35 pm by PRR »

Offline Geezer

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2010, 04:21:39 am »
Quote
6550 is a much bigger and more expensive tube than 6L6. Don't use it unless you need it

I doubt I'll need it, as the 2x 6L6's should be a-plenty.

Thanks PRR.

Oh, BTW.....I'm using Weber's 25W OT (not the 125ESE shown on the schem....I'll have to change that) & it does weight ~~7 lbs, so I've got a good 14 lbs of iron on this beast.
However, it's in "head" form, so it should come in at well under the 80 lbs total....  :grin:
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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2010, 12:18:33 pm »
I actually kind of like the idea that Merlin has in alternating the bias stages btwn hot & cold to produce cut-off & grid current limiting generating sustain & harmonic complexity along the way. Are there some amp examples w/ soundbites for this kind of design & tone to hear as a comparrison?

Is this (harmonic content) why geezer & others are going w/ SE amp designs for this dumble idea? If so, I thought that a clean PA was what contributed to & was sought after for this type of amp emphasizing the preamp gain? What about the issue associated noise inherent w/ SE amps & high gain stages?

Out of the 4 possible valid questions above "thinking out loud" - why do I get two responses that are only centered on the noise issue but nothing else? That seems to appear as defensive behavior ("why my amp isn't going to be noisy...") & who am I to question anything or anyone and the other questions don't even warrant a response? Thanks guys.
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Offline tubenit

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2010, 01:15:45 pm »
Well, I can not speak for everyone else.  I responded to what I had a response to.

I am not familiar with Merlin's comments/design?

I don't know of any soundbits because I don't know what this is?

I am not aware of harmonic content being associated with SE over other designs?

I was not familiar with the noise with SE amps, so I asked you what you knew?

I thought DaGeezer's answer that his SE amps are quiet was encouraging and respectful.  I owned a VibroChamp and a Princeton Reverb at the same time. They seemed equally quiet and/or noisey to me.

You seem to be more familiar & knowledgeable with these subjects than I am. There was no intent to disregard your questions or be disrespectful. I am simply not knowledgeable enough to answer your questions.

The other moderators know far more than I do about this stuff. I have had virtually NO formal training in electronics ever. Strictly a hobbyist learning from the forum and experience.

With respect, Tubenit




Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2010, 01:38:28 pm »
As for me, I understood what you were commenting on, but don't know of any soundclips, so I figured I'd let Merlin field that in case he did know of some.

Regarding why some use SE power amps, I figured I wouldn't presume to know why they choose one topology over another. If I had to guess, I'd think it has more to do with the output power level they're shooting for, or that they're really fond of SE output stages and select them on that basis.

As for whether a clean output stage is a requirement, I don't think it is. However, the original Dumble logic appears to me to be that the preamp distortion is being made with a quite high level of control over various aspects of the distortion; when you do that, you don't really look for output stage distortion. Further, you might view the purpose of the output stage as being simply a way to accurately reproduce what's happening in the preamp up to some high level of volume. But I don't see anything in the design that dictates that the output stage must remain clean, so if someone chooses to use a SE stage, they're only limitiation is the output power their amp will be capable of. A lot of folks here play mostly at home and don't need huge volume, so it seems a workable solution.

As for noise in high gain amps and SE power amps, they're 2 different kinds of noise. The SE output stage only contributes noise when there is insufficient filtering, and Geezer gave the solution: cap to ground, dropping resistor or choke, cap to ground, and then the plate feed. That gives enough filtering to knock down hum without resorting to old Fender Champ tricks of having a bass response too poor to really reproduce a 60Hz signal. It's the route people go when they decide they want to use a good OT and speaker, and then suddenly hear hum.

As for high gain, all high gain amps will have some amount of noise. Or you could better say that there is some limit to how much gain you can have before noise becomes an issue. From what I've read, using high-current or high-Gm tubes early could help minimize noise, but the resistances we use probably account for more noise in amps than anything else. Regardless, I don't build high gain amps much, and I'd defer to soemone who does to share practical methods for insuring low noise.

Offline Geezer

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2010, 05:17:41 pm »
Quote
I responded to what I had a response to.
I am not familiar with Merlin's comments/design?
You seem to be more familiar & knowledgeable with these subjects than I am. There was no intent to disregard your questions or be disrespectful. I am simply not knowledgeable enough to answer your questions.


Same here...... I just skimmed over the post (as I do most posts these days....over-worked & using every spare minute to get my new build going) & responded to what I quickly had an answer to & understood.

G
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Offline pullshocks

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2010, 11:53:25 pm »
Well, SE amps are by nature Class A which supposedly give even order harmonics whereas Class AB PP supposedly gives more odd order harmonics

Some seem to think output tube distortion is the holy grail.  Others get the sound they want with preamp distortion with a clean power amp, as evidenced by the popularity and mystique of the dumble amps and their clones.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2010, 12:32:39 pm »
Well, SE amps are by nature Class A which supposedly give even order harmonics whereas Class AB PP supposedly gives more odd order harmonics.

But there are flaws in that logic.

Ready for something that will mess with your mind? If a sine wave has even harmonic distortion (and phase of the various components of the signal are the same), then the waveform will look normal on one side and flattened/fatter on the other side. So "even harmonic distortion" is due to "asymmetric alteration of the wave". The term even comes from mathematics, where the added frequencies are even whole-number multiples of the fundamental frequency, like 2x, 4x, 6x, etc.

Odd harmonic distortion, when all components are in phase, looks like both sides of the waveform are being flattened at the same time. If you added an infinite number of odd harmonics to a sine wave, you'd get a perfect square wave.

Anyway, distortion in tubes happens because the characteristic curves are just that: curves. If they were perfectly straight, evenly-spaced parallel lines, there would be no distortion except for sudden clipping when you drive the plate to B+ or ground. The shape of triode curves are such that when you draw a loadline, you will see that as plate current dips close to zero, the curves bend and bunch together. In this area, a bigger input signal does not result in the same increase of output, due to the bunched curves, as at other points on the loadline. Because this curvature is all on one side of the loadline, triodes typically have predominately even harmonic distortion (flattening of the signal on 1 side).

Pentodes have nearly horizontal curves which bunch together at low plate current. But depending on the size of the load, the loadline may run into a point where all the curves run together at low plate voltage, high plate current. If this is the case, you get odd harmonic distortion (flattening on both sides). Really, you probably get some even harmonic distortion too, because the degree of bunching is not the same on both sides. Flat on both sides = odd harmonics, but not equally flat = even harmonics. How much you have of each is dependant on your load.

You can look up some very complete data sheets, especially the G.E. 6L6GC data sheet, and see a chart that plots how much 2nd harmonic and 3rd harmonic you get for a given setup when the only change is load impedance. Away from 1 critical point, 2nd harmonic is never zero. But one trick sometimes used in the old days of hi-fi was to use a load which minimized 3rd harmonic and maximized 2nd harmonic, then run the tubes in push-pull to cancel the 2nd harmonic. The end result was (hopefully) the least amount of distortion you could manage from those tubes.

So hopefully you'll see that with pentodes and beam power tubes, the characteristic of the distortion can't be assumed; it can vary widely over types and degrees.

Offline jojokeo

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2010, 05:29:02 pm »
Thanks HPB for the detailed explanation of distortion characteristics which is sort of what I was referring to when I was mentioning the alternating biasing technique. It is creating some very complex harmonic structure through asymmetrical clipping generating new harmonics & textures from raw & biting to rich & creamy. The way each stage is set-up & biased allows the designer/builder to affect the way each stage reacts and sounds be it clean, warm, dirty, gritty, hard, crunchy, etc. (any number of adjectives you'd care to use to describe all of the various content) through a series of stages all biased differently from each other adding up to a unique sound personality particular to that amplifier. Each stage adds in tone, increasing harmonic strcutures, and comlplexity to the next. Along w/ the previous description there's also added benefits which minimizes or eliminates parasitic oscillations, has resistance to blocking distortion, increases sustain and may prevent consecutive warm biased stage's tone from becoming too raw, thin, fizzy or brittle.

This design approach has merit and should be something of interest which warrants attention and experimentation especially in a high gain amp but is contrary to the Dumble philosophy and current schematic the way I see it since he doesn't appear to employ anything like it. Rather a few extra knobs & switches in a tone stack or gain stage doesn't make any major ground breaking sound differences or break throughs in the tone department IMHO. Apparently this way of thinking isn't in the interest of a "let's copy that amp" instant gratification kind of mentality of "the builder" but rather pioneering minds of the true designers out there which the world could use more of.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 06:59:39 pm by tubenit »
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Offline sluckey

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2010, 10:18:03 pm »
Quote
Apparently this way of thinking isn't in the interest of a "let's copy that amp" instant gratification kind of mentality of "the builder" but rather pioneering minds of the true designers out there which the world could use more of.
Most of us are just hobbyist, not leaders or pioneers. Still, there's a certain gratification from building an amp even if you didn't think it up. Most of the good stuff has already been thunk of anyhow.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Dave

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2010, 11:31:45 pm »
I'm a leader. Where we going?

Dave

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2010, 11:36:07 pm »
You could always ditch the power transformer in a large parallel SE amp and use a small switched supply instead. Just a thought anyway. Instead of 20-25 pounds of transformer you could get away with around half that.

If you're going with parallel tubes for SE operation there is some benefit to reduced need for high primary inductance- maybe you could use less turns and have a little smaller OT as a result. Dunno if the increased current and heat of parallel tubes offsets this or not. Come to think of it I don't know very much at all.

jamie

Offline Geezer

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OT location opinions??
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2010, 05:59:50 am »
OK, I've having a problem w/ OT location ......quickly running out of room on my "roomy" chassis.

I have attached a block diagram as to how/where I am placing the OT.....anyone see a better solution?
My concern is the closeness of the 2x trannys & possible interaction, but I can't seem to see any other possible places to put it!

Also, w/ each lump weighing 7lbs+, having 14-15lbs of iron on one end of the chassis isn't real exciting for balance purposes either!

I have also attached the .sch file, so that if anyone has ideas, they can move the stuff around easier.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 06:08:22 am by Geezer »
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2010, 07:25:57 am »
I imagine the PT is too big to go inside the chassis, a la a laydown PT but mounted entirely underneath? I was imagining it being inside the chassis, with the OT on the opposite side of the chassis metal. I also envisioned a metal shield inside the chassis between the PT and the rest of the interior, to help block and hum fields. You could route wires through a hole in that shield, using a rubber grommet to protect the wires in the same way that you would in a blackface Fender build.

Apparently this way of thinking isn't in the interest of a "let's copy that amp" instant gratification kind of mentality of "the builder" but rather pioneering minds of the true designers out there which the world could use more of.

Perhaps. It is also a known circuit with known results. The often-overlooked aspect of all this is that the pioneering people may sort out much of the design on paper, but they always breadboard and/or build a prototype to find out how well reality agrees with their theoretical design...

Offline Geezer

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2010, 07:57:07 am »
HBP, no that won't work (PT inside chassis), but what about (if, in fact, problems are present) a shield between the PT & OT?

See attached drawing>>
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2010, 08:04:37 am »
Are you sure there would even be problems with no shield, since the cores are shown at 90 degree angles? My suggestion wasn't too concerned about noise (although if you have a steel chassis, it makes a dandy shield) but more about space.

Offline tubenit

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2010, 08:19:31 am »
DaGeezer,

I did exactly what you are considering on an amp build where I used a PT that did not have a cover on/around it.  I made a sheet metal shield and it worked just fine having the PT and OT very close to one another.

With respect, Tubenit

Offline Geezer

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2010, 08:39:44 am »
Quote
My suggestion wasn't too concerned about noise (although if you have a steel chassis, it makes a dandy shield) but more about space.

No........ the space is available, but I was concerned with possible interaction/noise.

The PT is fully enclosed, but the OT is not....it (the core) is wrapped in tape.

I guess I'll put it there & see what happens, then deal with problems (if any, probably none) later. I'm pretty limited to that location.

Thanks for the input, guys!

G
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 08:41:49 am by Geezer »
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Offline ACDCG400

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2010, 09:24:28 am »
Hey Geezer do the headfone trick, and try lifting the ot, maybe a cm or 2 in the air, and also put the ot on its side. i found in my build the went away. the difference was night and day. i had to make new brackets for the ot tho =[[

Offline tubenit

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2010, 07:23:21 pm »
I hopefully will start my version of this maybe this wkend?

Note red area:
Anyhow, I am more used to paralleled caps then caps in series using switches. Is there another way to do the same mid boost with paralleled caps & is that 4.7M resistor really needed.

Note blue area:
On the trim going into the OD, it looks like this could be somewhat simplified possibly with a 250k pot and the 250p cap and 470k resistor across the outside lugs? Although I am also wondering if the way it is makes it easier to adjust accurately with the smaller 25kl trim pot?

Any thoughts on those?  There's a SCH editable schematic if you can see another way of doing the same thing and getting the same tone.

With respect, Tubenit

Offline jojokeo

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2010, 11:24:58 pm »
>Anyhow, I am more used to paralleled caps then caps in series using switches. Is there another way to do the same mid boost with paralleled caps & is that 4.7M resistor really needed.

I see it as being a 326pF treble bandwidth cap while both are in series then a plain .02 coupling cap when it's switched out. It's fine leaving it that way unless you're usual stack uses more or less than 326pF? The 4.7M resistor seems like too much w/ 1M being plenty.

>On the trim going into the OD, it looks like this could be somewhat simplified possibly with a 250k pot and the 250p cap and 470k resistor across the outside lugs?

Putting that directly across the pot and keeping it off the board is a good idea. It's an unusual divider set-up & I wonder if it was his way to minimize resistor noise or attenuate RF besides being a creative way to knock off additional signal?
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline tubenit

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2010, 04:39:04 am »
Jojokeo,

Thank you for the reply!

With respect, Tubenit

Offline darkbluemurder

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2010, 11:13:49 am »
Note blue area:
On the trim going into the OD, it looks like this could be somewhat simplified possibly with a 250k pot and the 250p cap and 470k resistor across the outside lugs? Although I am also wondering if the way it is makes it easier to adjust accurately with the smaller 25kl trim pot?

The way I understood it from dogear's explanations on the ampgarage it is a low gain network designed for the amp to be run in preamp boost mode. With a 250kA gain pot it would not be low gain anymore.

Cheers Stephan

Offline tubenit

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Re: mini D-HRM amp
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2010, 12:01:11 pm »
Quote
With a 250kA gain pot it would not be low gain anymore.


I decided I would build it as originally designed with the exception of a smaller filter cap on last B+ node. Probably will use a 16uf or 22uf.

I see a 4.7k to ground + 25k trim pot and a 220k resistor on the non ground terminal.  That's 249.7k which is pretty close to 250kA. I'm not sure how substituting a 250k pot would make it a higher gain if the 250k pot were dialed down with very little resistance to ground?

Anyhow, I do plan to build it as originally shown.

With respect, Tubenit

 


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